Two licences running

[TEcHNOpls]

Hi,

if I have AP on two PCs I own, and I run one copy and anyone and runs a second copy at same time, is this permissible according to the license?

[Alfred]

The License Agreement states:

Quote

you are not permitted to run, or allow to be run, the Serif Software over a network or any other means by which it can be used simultaneously on more than one computer;

 

So it would appear that the answer to your question is ‘No’.

[walt.farrell]

But he said he has AP on two PCs, so he wouldn't be running it over a network.

The applicable part of the license agreement seems to be, if he's asking as an individual rather than as a business:

Quote

if you are a private individual, to download, install, use and run for personal use, one (1) copy of the Serif Software directly on each computer running Microsoft Windows (“Windows Computer”) that you personally own or control. Commercial use is permitted but only use by you and not by any other users of any Windows Computers that you own or control. For example, other members of your household that use your Windows Computers may make personal use of the Serif Software whereas, if anyone other than yourself needs to make commercial use of the Serif Software, the other user will need to make a separate purchase.

If he's asking as a business owner/user, though, then the next section of the license agreement would be the relevant one.

[Alfred]

9 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

But he said he has AP on two PCs, so he wouldn't be running it over a network.

 

That’s true, Walt, but the sentence which mentions running over a network goes on to say “or any other means by which it can be used simultaneously on more than one computer”. It seems to me that “any other means” would include direct installation on a second PC.

[walt.farrell]

Interesting point, @Alfred, but that sentence you quoted starts a bit earlier with " Except to the extent expressly allowed in this License" and I believe the best interpretation would be that the right to install and use on multiple computers you own/control would count as an allowable exception [Edit: especially as it occurs first.]

Thankfully, though, I am not a lawyer.

[Alfred]

21 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Thankfully, though, I am not a lawyer.

 

Neither am I, but given that I don’t see anything in the licence agreement about concurrent use being “expressly allowed”, I’m inclined to think that the single-user licence is intended to provide for only one seat.

[TEcHNOpls]

Basically that's where my issues steam from. I may have it on two computers in the houshold, but can I be running these two copies at once? That wording in the license is unclear to me.

[R C-R]

For personal, non-commercial use, I think this is the operative clause of the license:

Quote

if you are a private individual, to download, install, use and run for personal use, one (1) copy of the Serif Software directly on each computer running Microsoft Windows (“Windows Computer”) that you personally own or control.

Running the app over a network is not the same as running it directly on a computer. If the intent of the 'no network' clause was to include prohibiting the simultaneous use on any other computer you own or control, there would be no reason to include "directly" in the above. The tricky bit is what "it" refers to in "or any other means by which it can be used simultaneously on more than one computer;" but I think the intended meaning is by any means that would allow simultaneous use of the copy directly installed on one computer on any other computer.

[IanSG]

13 hours ago, R C-R said:

For personal, non-commercial use, I think this is the operative clause of the license:

Speaking as yet another non-lawyer, I have to disagree - "you are not permitted to run, or allow to be run, the Serif Software over a network or any other means by which it can be used simultaneously on more than one computer;" seems to trump everything!  It's clear, unambiguous, and it's reasonable!

[carl123]

14 hours ago, TEcHNOpls said:

Basically that's where my issues steam from. I may have it on two computers in the houshold, but can I be running these two copies at once? That wording in the license is unclear to me.

Yes you can as long as only you uses it for commercial use.

[Alfred]

9 minutes ago, carl123 said:

Yes you can as long as ...

 

You can install it on multiple machines, but it’s not at all clear that it can be used on more than one at a time. Hence this thread.

[carl123]

14 minutes ago, Alfred said:

 

You can install it on multiple machines, but it’s not at all clear that it can be used on more than one at a time. Hence this thread.

The license agreement specifically states in section 1

1.if you are a private individual, to download, install, use and run for personal use, one (1) copy of the Serif Software directly on each computer running Microsoft Windows (“Windows Computer”) that you personally own or control.

The key terms are "use and run" and "on each computer" which would imply simultaneous running to any lay person. If software should not be used simultaneously on more than one computer then the license should explicitly state that.

The section on "network usage or any other means" is preceded by

Except to the extent expressly allowed in this License:

Which is what section 1 is all about

[R C-R]

20 minutes ago, IanSG said:

Speaking as yet another non-lawyer, I have to disagree - "you are not permitted to run, or allow to be run, the Serif Software over a network or any other means by which it can be used simultaneously on more than one computer;" seems to trump everything!  It's clear, unambiguous, and it's reasonable!

How can anything that is preceded by "Except to the extent expressly allowed in this License" trump everything? If it did, there would be no reason for that phrase to be there.

 

Again, I think what makes this unclear is what specifically does "the Serif Software" refer to? Is it referring to a single copy installed (directly) on one computer that a user would want to run on another computer over a network or by some other unspecified means, or inclusively to every copy installed on any computer a user owns or controls?

 

Something else to consider: The staff have mentioned several times that Serif intends for the Mac & Windows licenses to grant the same usage rights for both platforms to the extent possible. The Apple license includes the provision "Except as provided in the Usage Rules, you may not distribute or make the Licensed Application available over a network where it could be used by multiple devices at the same time." This is the only clause that would govern simultaneous use on multiple computers (although it is not limited to that), but is clear from the wording that it applies to a single copy of the app distributed or otherwise made available over a network.

 

So, assuming the licenses are intended to grant the same rights, the 'single copy' interpretation seems to be the intended one.

 

Also, on the same 'same rights' theme, has anybody looked at the Windows Store version of the license? Surely, at the least the Affinity & Windows store licenses should offer the same rights ... right? 

[Alfred]

21 minutes ago, carl123 said:

The key terms are "use and run" and "on each computer" which would imply simultaneous running to any lay person. If software should not be used simultaneously on more than one computer then the license should explicitly state that.

 

That sounds reasonable.

 

[IanSG]

2 hours ago, R C-R said:

How can anything that is preceded by "Except to the extent expressly allowed in this License" trump everything? If it did, there would be no reason for that phrase to be there.

That's a fair point, but I think it's like this phrase, which appears earlier in the contract - "All rights not expressly granted to you are reserved to Serif".  They're catch all phrases which, if nothing else, allow the contract to be amended in the future without having to rewrite the whole thing.

[IanSG]

2 hours ago, carl123 said:

The key terms are "use and run" and "on each computer" which would imply simultaneous running to any lay person. If software should not be used simultaneously on more than one computer then the license should explicitly state that.

It does -  "you are not permitted to run, or allow to be run, the Serif Software over a network or any other means by which it can be used simultaneously on more than one computer;" 

[carl123]

3 minutes ago, IanSG said:

It does -  "you are not permitted to run, or allow to be run, the Serif Software over a network or any other means by which it can be used simultaneously on more than one computer;" 

You have a habit of missing out the line that immediately precedes that statement, which is...

Except to the extent expressly allowed in this License: 

Choosing to ignore that line in your responses here, is not going to change what the actual software licence says or allows

[IanSG]

I addressed that in my previous post - there's no express permission.  If I've missed something then I apologise, but please point out what I've missed.

[TEcHNOpls]

I'll be waiting for some comment by @MEB or other Serif Staff.

[carl123]

19 minutes ago, IanSG said:

I addressed that in my previous post - there's no express permission.  If I've missed something then I apologise, but please point out what I've missed.

I could only repeat what I have already said but if you did not understand it the first time, repeating it would be pointless

I will though add that a phrase like "or any other means" is a catch-all phrase that has no right being in any software licensing agreement.  It is like the person drafting the agreement knew about running the software off a network but not how else it could be run, so just threw that phrase in there to try to cover any additional ways the software could have been run.

Licenses have to be explicit in what is allowed and what is not allowed, even more so when they are to be directed towards lay people rather than corporate lawyers.

"or any other means" is ambiguous and hence now causing all this confusion over that one little phrase. It should never have been in that license but it is still clear that section 1 allows simultaneous use of the software when used as directed in section 1

[walt.farrell]

1 hour ago, IanSG said:

It does -  "you are not permitted to run, or allow to be run, the Serif Software over a network or any other means by which it can be used simultaneously on more than one computer;" 

But that still doesn't clarify what they mean by "the Serif Software."

 

That phrase could mean a single copy installed on a single PC. They do define the software, but imprecisely as something they provided via download. So one could argue that if they let you download it twice, and install twice, that it's two pieces of software. At that point each would only be used once, and the two separate "the software" could be used simultaneously.

[TEcHNOpls]

@MEB can you please clarify this issue? I'm still not sure.