Make Catalogue like Lightroom

[anon1]

nobody wants a catalog in AP

 

we need a flexible browser and DAM (maybe even two apps) that is flexible so that it can manage databases/ backup as well as synced edits/ smart previews and sidecar files tethered shooting simple file browsing without importing as an option as well

 

and a DAM will be done

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/13792-dam-affinity-lightroom-killer-request/?p=61067

for sure

 

cheers

[havovubu]

As I have said before. Here attached are pictures of my DAM solution. It's called the MAC OS.

 

I think most will see it has everything needed to manage photos without having to import them into a restrictive catalogue with all the hassle that brings.

 

Cheers

Havovubu  :) 

[DarkClown]

Sure ... when DAM for you is done with putting some stars and colour aside a picture ;-) .... you kind of get it FOR FREE! Congrats :-)

[havovubu]

Many thanks DarkClown

 

Yes that's the point really it is sort of free. It's much much more that a few stars though :-)

 

Taking away the photo editing facilities of most DAM software (I use AP for all that), I can't think of anything really that a DAM does that MAC OS can't??

 

Keywords, smart searches, coloured windows, different icons for folders, smart folders, non-destructive work is taken care of in AP (.aphoto files with all my work contained), sharing, open with, backup with Time Machine, versions, iCloud backups, emailing straight from MAC OS, stacking, nested folders, macros, automator, bespoke tags, compress, contextual menus, and very best of all quick look!

 

I reckon Lightroom would struggle to do all that so elegantly as the MAC OS.

 

Of course I may be wrong :)

 

Cheers

[Keith Reeder]

Yep, you can do the same in Windows - and (if it's your thing - it is mine) - you can also do a lot of Exif/IPTC-based management too, as Windows can display/sort/search by pretty much any Exif or IPTC field you can think of..

[havovubu]

Totally agree Keith

I've not had so much experience with Windows but you have inspired me to explore on my Windows laptop. I will give it a go.

 

Cheers

Havovubu

[DarkClown]

Keith, could you explore a little bit more in detail, how you manage to do a proper DAM in Windows? Like LR without the RAW development part (since that is covered in AP already) ... I'm curious ...

[v_kyr]

@DarkClown

 

Vielleicht solltest Du stattdessen ruhig einmal XnViewMP ausprobieren, dies gibt es für Windows sowie OSX, ferner ist es für den persönlichen bzw. den privaten gebrauch umsonst verwendbar. Es bietet schon recht viel zum Katalogisieren/Suchen/Verwalten von Fotos und Grafikdateien etc. Zudem kann es auch zwischen Formaten konvertieren und man kann angeben mit welchen Programmen was geöffnet bzw. bearbeitet werden soll usw. Ausserdem beinhaltet es einen Datei- und Bild-Previewer!

 

Hier mal auf die Schnelle zwei Screenshots ...

 

 

[fotojindra]

Was? :wacko: Und jetzt wir haben hier etwas in Deutsch? Denken Sie das die Englische kompanie wird mit dir in Deutsch sprechen? Ich bin neugierig :D Und wir als members.... aaaaaaach so - du hast es gemacht zu kein diskussion hier haben :D Leute hier verstehen Sie nichts. Ist es deine intention? ;)

---------------------------------------------

Just translated for others:

 

What? :wacko: And now we have here something in German language? Do you think that an English company will with you speak in German language? I am interested :D  And what about members..... aaaaaaa yeah - you have made it because you do not want a discussion here :D People will not understand you here. Is it your intention?  ;) 

[DarkClown]

@v_kyr: Thanks for the hint. It's not that I was looking for a DAM soloution right now since I've been using LR for ages now. Nevertheless I'm trying to completely move away from Adobe products. So a DAM soloution that nicely fits into the Affinity product series would be great. And no, I don't consider OS like Win or MacOS as a serious substitute for a DAM soloution since tagging pictures with stars and numbers is only a tiny fraction of what a proper DAM does (i first thought that sugestion was a joke). XnView is a half way soloution and definately worth a look and a discussion. But still I would not compare it to LR or similar.

@fotojindra: relax :-) ... the answer was directed at me and I do speak german ;-) ... and yes, quite some people post questions and reports here in their native language and they get answers by serif staff - they even answer in their language. If you're anxious of missing out on valuable information just get google translate to help you out ;-)

Cheers, Timo

[fotojindra]

I am surprised about what you are saying - positively. I will try with Serif staff next time in meine Tschechische Muttersprache  :D I will just miss that other people will not understand or will have to use some kind of translator.... (which is something I have really never used yet - I have to try it - at least for fun, thanks for the tip).

Even though any information that is shared here is valuable and still it seems Serif is listening so why not to discuss everyones ideas - that is my point.

I am relaxed, it is a nice day today :) AP is working, people are talking  ;) 

[v_kyr]

@fotojindra

 

Sorry, just suggested to DarkClown directly that he maybe want's to give XnViewMP a try here, instead of the OS related file system browsers, since that is available for all platforms (free for personal/private usage) and offers at least initial cataloging features.

[Fixx]

Tiedätte kai että Timo on myös suomalainen nimi?

[DarkClown]

kyllä, tiedän ;-)

[fotojindra]

Wau, that Google translator works quite well even for Finnish and Czech :)  Great fun :D

Thanks for the tip

However from v_kyr it translated me "umsonst" to Czech as "hardly usable", oder als sagen sie in Deutsch "fehl" oder "erfolglos", und das ist nicht richtig.....

[Keith Reeder]

Keith, could you explore a little bit more in detail, how you manage to do a proper DAM in Windows? Like LR without the RAW development part (since that is covered in AP already) ... I'm curious ...

 

Hi DC,

 

note that I didn't actually say "proper" DAM (although that would depend on personal requirements anyway) but in Windows Explorer, one can display pretty much any Exif or IPTC metadata tag attached to an image file:

 

 

It follows that once you have access to these data (this isn't remotely an exhaustive list of the headings available - you can display IPTC notes too, for example) it is a simple matter to use the search in Win Explorer to (for example) find all of the files processed by Photo Ninja; or all the 5-star rated images (you can actually rate your images from within, and with, Explorer); or every image taken with my Canon 7D Mk II; or all the files of 1000 ISO; or all the files tagged in the metadata with the word "eagle"; and so on.

 

What can be done is pretty much only limited by the imagination of the user; and for my DAM requirements (which may or may not be simpler than those of other photographers) this approach (tweaked a bit to play in Excel and VBA as a one-stop control layer over this functionality) it works every bit as well as commercial offerings.

 

To display these tags, simply right-click on the column header and select "More..." from the context menu.

[havovubu]

I totally agree Keith

 

For me the MAC OS keeps me away from Adobe products completely and for me at least measures up to LR.

 

I would be interested DC what specific features you consider to be included within a 'proper' DAM that the Windows & MAC OS (Plus of course AP) can't do? I am very happy to be persuaded otherwise :)

 

Cheers

[fotojindra]

Yes havovubu, that is a good idea. That could lead in some interesting results and message towards Serif. I like it  ;)  Please those of you who can state these additional features join the discussion..... I can only say what I do not like about LR :D

Cheers

[Keith Reeder]

Agreed - I've had more than one experience of someone insisting they "need" a DAM, when all they actually needed is a proper understanding of what their OS can do for them.

 

(Not saying that's true of DC, but it's a conversation I've had quite a lot...)

[DarkClown]

Well, I guess we are all aware that DAM is by far more than putting some stars and colour to a picture or reading the metadata from a file. Of course a direct comparison to prof. DAM SW is tricky since these programs mixup additional features from non DAM related areas into the program (e.g. RAW converter). This partly makes a lot of sense since in terms of close integration it enhance the capabilities of the DAM additionally. But trying to keep the focus on the DAM related features i do not see an OS even in the distance capable of DAM features that matter to me. Searching, selecting comparing pictures in a multitude of ways (e.g. individual side by side comparison in high res as Lightroom offers it). Copying settings to a selected range of pictures. Importing and exporting including format conversions. Simply a multitude ways to display the assets. Combinig selected ranges of assetzs in collection, distributin them as packages, sharing them wirh otheres and re-importing them to the original collection. Archiving and versioning and so on ...

No OS is capable of all of theses features. You might find nasty workarounds to achieve goals with a hell lot of effort - for some of theses features you will be able to use other software ... but give me one reason to make your life really difficult, whern there are good DAM systems available - regardless if it is free (XnView) or professional (LR)

[Keith Reeder]

DarkClown, you seem hell-bent on picking fights, and I'm pretty tired of your attitude. You asked a question, I answered.

 

I'm done with you, and your posts are now blocked.

[DarkClown]

LOL, Keith ... don't know what set you up that much, considering I wasn't even referring to you, your posts nor comments ...
I answered havovubu's question what features I consider as important within an DAM, and gave my personal validation of OS vs DAM SW.
You must be pretty thin-skinned to misrender pure technical statements as offensive. Never mind ;-)

[havovubu]

Hi DC

 

I must say I was hoping for a more challenging set of examples. I have picked through the features you cited and come up with the following:

 

Searching: I really find this one quite amusing. One of the fundamental functions of any OS is to incorporate a comprehensive search engine. The MAC OS for examples can search for files by date, size, name, tags, ratings, keywords, filename, file extension etc. etc.  Searches can be saved and used again, smart searches, automator, macros. Spotlight searches. Even SIRI can search for you if you ask her nicely :)  Come on; you really need a DAM to search for your photos?

 

Comparing pictures side by side is done very simply by using several feature in MAC OS. Quick look can easily do this and so can Preview. Preview even has a cute little magnifying glass feature like Aperture does.

 

Importing & Exporting: No need. Equivalent to copying your pictures to a folder.

 

Copying settings to a selected range of pictures: AP does that very nicely

 

Presenting files/assets in a multitude of ways: MAC OS can present all files in so many ways such as lists, thumbnails as a slide show, quick view, side by side. By date, size, type et al.

 

"Combinig selected ranges of assetzs in collection": That's just called using different folders in any OS. Nested folders and all sorts can be used. Even automatic Smart folders.

 

"sharing them wirh otheres": MAC OS can do this by a simple right click and share. Tons of ways to do that. I don't need a DAM for that.

 

"Archiving and versioning": All done automatically and simple with Time Machine in MAC OS. Even compare versions side by side and restore old versions and undelete images previously deleted years ago.

 

None of these are "nasty" workarounds, take any "effort" or make my life in the slightest "difficult". In fact the MAC OS is a joy to use and infinitely more powerful than any DAM I've used. All the features you cited (and much more) can very easily be achieved by AP & MAC OS

 

If either you or I have missed anything you will almost certainly find AP can do it for you: See HERE

 

With respect, you have given it your best shot DC but failed to convince me that I need a DAM. I understand that you do, and many others do. I also acknowledge that they are useful. DAMs have some nifty little features essential for some workflows. But uniquely more powerful than a good OS? NEVER!

 

I have enjoyed our discussion but I now need to move on.

 

Cheers

Havovubu :)

[DarkClown]

Hi Havovubu,
 

frankly spoken, I'm not familiar with MacOS ... so my judgement is only based on Windows systems. And of course even on windows certain things seem "possible" ... but in terms of handling just not easy and practical. And from a professional point of view the efforts to get same or similar results seem to be not justified. I guess there must be reasons for why DAM SW can be sold even on MacOS systems ...

My approach is not to blaim one for a soloution they chose as best for themself .... I'm trying to search for the best practical way to deal with the tasks I'm focussing. And I'm happy to adapt to other and new suggestions - as long as they seem to be the better possible way to come to results. 
So talking about requirements: I want a one stop shop when it comes to picture management. I also want easy access to all of the above mentioned features. I don't want many other applications to fullfill my needs.
And again: I'm talking windows and not MacOS here

Searching: To find detailed informations about your files it needs in depth knowledge of the way to set up the search filters in windows (in comparison to proper DAM Sytems) ... in standard setup it is not possible to tag pictures, easily add meta data, give pictures a rating, colour or pre-selection. Please keep in mind, that a SW needs to be uasable for customers (no diploma in SW engineering required to operate the system!). I'm not aware that macros can be accessed in windows to work for you. What are smart searches? (Even the need to ask for the availability of these features should be an indication for the unavailablility to the public - I've been working and programming on windows based systems for more than 30 years - how should anyone with less experience easily jump into theses features?)

Comparing: Did you ever utilize or look into the LR feature of parallel comparison of pictures? It displays the exact same areas of RAW pictures 1:1 for a proper judgement of the picture you want. I do have my doubts that MacOS comes with a feature similar to that - but as I said, I'm a windows user and not familiar with the MacOS

Import/Export: We are talking catalogs here, conversion options (output formats, CMYK, sRGB), resizing, maybe output sharpening ... Windows is not capable of theses things unless you use additional tools

Copying settings: We are not talking AP ... we are takling DAM! AP has as well excellent export options ...

Combining and Sharing: Hate to mention LR again ... selecting dedicated folders, extracting them as a catalog for external use (even though the original files are not available) and re-inserting them in the dadicated catalogues with altered meta data. Thats a strong feature ... and of course, you might be able to exchange it through copy and paste in folders ...(better don't make any mistakes) ...  but does it really need further arguments to see the difference?

Archiving: Isn't time machine another additional proprietary SW product that is enhancing the OS (no problem with that - even though I'm not aware what it is capable of) ... and again: wouldn't it be nice to have that within a one stop shop SW?

And again: if whatever OS you use is so capable, why are some many standalone DAM systems sold??? (And we all know the answers)

 

To make one thing clear: My goal is not to draw balck & white pictures ... there is no right or wrong and I'm sure many things can be achieved by the OS as well ... but eventuall I want a one stop shop ... with all the bells an whistles .. easy to use and easy< to understand. I'd love to see a seamless DAM soloution included in the Affinity series. Certainly since from my point of view (even if many feature theoretically are available) this adds up to a high end usable soloution. The OS alternative seems like a "it's tough but with huge efforts theses things are available as well" soloution. Thats nice to know. But when you've got do deal with it on a daily base I'd prefere the easy and professional soloution. There is a reason why DAM Systems can be sold very well.

One last statement from my side: I'm struggeling a bit with the ambithion you and other people try to defend their ideas. I feel no need to convince anybody. In contrary: if you come up with a new and interesting approach, I'm happy to listen and learn. I'm here to broaden my views, not to convince anybody (very selfish, I know :-) ). Thats my main reason I'm taking part in these discussions ... I can only learn and people like you have got other and propably more experience in some areas. Currently I see no way to swap any kind of dedicated DAM system for the OS ... but first of all it seems you're happy with using your OS - that's brilliant. Maybe seeing you using it could convince me as well (hard to judge right now). Right now I can't see a windows OS as an alternative by any means. One reason I'd like to see AP comming with a seamless integrated DAM system.And whatever comes up next needs to compete and be better than what I'm using right now.

Cheers,
Timo
 

[havovubu]

Hi Timo

 

You make many good points so thank you for being constructive. Summing all this up, I absolutely agree that a DAM is essential for most users who like you, want that one stop approach where everything is at hand. Of course I see the benefits to that approach. I used this approach myself for many years with both Aperture and Lightroom. I am very familiar with all their excellent features. Some of these features are crucial for many users.

 

 

To conclude I just make the following points in relation to AP together with MAC OS:

 

• AP & MAC OS combined can offer the vast majority of the features found in most DAMs including LR and Aperture: I agree that you do need to the capabilities of the MAC OS. But like any software (including LR) you need to know this too.

 

• Many people if they were aware of the power of AP combined with MAC OS would not need a DAM (Most features essential to them would be right there). I do not need a DAM.

 

• A DAM for me personally just adds a 'middle man' into my workflow and duplicates many of the features I already have; making things more complex.

 

• Like you though, I feel know need to convince anyone that this workflow works for me. My initial aim was to change your original misconception that the MAC OS was only capable "putting some stars and colour to a picture or reading the metadata from a file". As I made clear above "AP & MAC OS combined can offer the vast majority of the features found in most DAMs including LR and Aperture!"

 

 

Having said all this, I really do look forward to the Affinity DAM. If developed correctly then I too may want to give it a go. For information though, I consider Apple Aperture to be the best DAM ever! :) If Serif purchased Aperture and developed an Affinity DAM it would be a great day!

 

For now though. I will stick with my OS combined with AP.

 

Regards

Wayne