Question about certain checkbox indicators

[mopperle]

I am struggling with some indications in checkboxes:

• blank means off
• checked means on
• but the dash? seems to me the same as off

Didnt find anything in the Help system or anywhere else.

 

[R C-R]

Hard to tell much without a reference to the Affinity app you are using & where this appears in the UI but as a guess it probably indicates an option that is applied to only some but not all properties of whatever it refers to.

[mopperle]

Sorry, forgot to mention, that in this case it is AFPub and when working with Text Styles. Didnt see this kind of "indicator" anywhere else, except when also working with Text Styles in Designer and Photo

[Old Bruce]

1 hour ago, mopperle said:

... but the dash? seems to me the same as off ...

Check mean On.

Blank means Off.

Dash means inherited.

Off the top of my head I don't recall seeing it in things other than Text Styles. So if you have a text style (New) based on another text style (Original) the setting for the Original style will be set to On or Off (or further inherited from a yet earlier style) in the New style. I tend to set my Text Styles to be based on one or more Group Styles, in the Group style I will set almost everything the way I want a basic paragraph to look then I will just fine tune a few settings in the Paragraph Styles. Things like Indents, spacing and where to start (Flow) the paragraph on the page/spread.

[MikeTO]

In general, a dashed checkbox or radio button means "mixed state". If you format one word with a checkbox option and select a range of text including that word then an application should show the checkbox as mixed state. This is a standard feature of macOS but Affinity doesn't do this. Instead it shows the value of the first character in a range of text or the value of the first selected object of multiple selected objects when values are mixed.

But as Bruce pointed out, Affinity does use the mixed state checkbox to convey No Change when editing a text style. It's important to understand the No Change concept when creating text styles so I've listed how each control conveys this in the Creating Text Styles section of my Publisher manual. You can download a free copy from the link in my forum signature.

Although radio buttons also have a mixed state option in macOS, Affinity ignores this so you won't see a dashed radio button in the Text Styles dialog. I believe this is because Windows doesn't offer this feature and they have to keep the interface as similar as possible.

[thomaso]

5 hours ago, MikeTO said:

This is a standard feature of macOS but Affinity doesn't do this. Instead it shows the value of the first character in a range of text or the value of the first selected object of multiple selected objects when values are mixed.

There are some seldom exceptions from this unfortunate Affinity behaviour to display mixed settings, for instance in menus ...

In this situation all three options get a dash if just two of them are applied. – And a mixed setting in one parameter can cause confusion in another:

[MikeTO]

21 minutes ago, thomaso said:

There are some seldom exceptions from this unfortunate Affinity behaviour to display mixed settings, for instance in menus ...

In this situation all three options get a dash if just two of them are applied. – And a mixed setting in one parameter can cause confusion in another:

You're right, I forgot to mention that. Affinity's menus handle mixed states, more or less, for example, Traits. The examples you provided are the menu equivalent of radio buttons and it looks like those aren't handled properly.

To be fair to Serif, Apple stopped caring about stuff like this long ago and their own apps don't follow their former standard. I say former because there is no guidance from Apple now, they deleted all mention of mixed states for menus and buttons from the UI guidelines when they deleted most of their UI guidelines.

[mopperle]

I'm not sure that I understand everything correct regarding the mixed state. It is clear for me, when using the Text menu. In my example I formated two words in italic, marked these two words together with other (non italic) and the menu shows the mixed state, which makes sense

But what I do not understand: I make a new document, which is totally empty. Then I start to create a style (text, paragraph or group), which is not based on any other style, but all those checkboxes show per default a mixed state, which makes no sense to me.

 

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[mopperle]

That's why this makes no sense for me when creating a new style. Either things are on or off and nothing in between. Or the responsible dev loves the quantum theory

[mopperle]

Other example: I formatted characters Bold and Italic (via a style), marked the text, clicked on create new character style and the dialogbox uses the settings of the marked text, but the checkbox for italic shows a mixed state ????

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[walt.farrell]

2 hours ago, mopperle said:

but all those checkboxes show per default a mixed state

It's not a "mixed state" then. It's "no change", which means "inherited from the parent style, if any".

[mopperle]

Yes, you are correct, I forget that I made the "italic" format with a style.

But still it is not clear to me why this kind of state, no change/mixed/inherited, when creating a new style in new document without any content. I'm missing the logic behind this, but probably I'm just to dumb to understand.

[thomaso]

4 hours ago, mopperle said:

But what I do not understand: I make a new document, which is totally empty. Then I start to create a style (text, paragraph or group), which is not based on any other style, but all those checkboxes show per default a mixed state, which makes no sense to me.

1 hour ago, mopperle said:

still it is not clear to me why this kind of state, no change/mixed/inherited, when creating a new style in new document without any content. I'm missing the logic behind this, but probably I'm just to dumb to understand.

The misunderstanding might be triggered or influenced by the idea that a new style could be fully independent of any existing formatting. As we can't create or display text without any style we also can't create a style without any base.

If you create a new style in Affinity without having an item selected then it will base on the definition of your "[No Style]" which doesn't mean no style but rather titles the text style "Defaults" this way. Accordingly every single parameter of a new style may either be based on / inherit or vary from your "[No Style]".

[mopperle]

This might be indeed what confuses me, because as you said when you create a new text style it is based on [No Style] which in fact seems to be a style, just with no settings.

This becomes clearer, when you create a new paragraph style which is also based on [No Style]. But in this case [No Style] has a lot of default settings.

[MikeTO]

1 hour ago, mopperle said:

This becomes clearer, when you create a new paragraph style which is also based on [No Style]. But in this case [No Style] has a lot of default settings.

"No Style" has no default settings and applying it only removes the style. It is a shortcut for the Text > Text Styles > Set No Paragraph/Character Style menu commands.

"No Style" has a different meaning in the Create/Edit Text Styles dialog. Basing a style on "No Style" means "Based on Nothing" - the style will inherit no settings.

You can demonstrate this by creating a paragraph style based on No Style with no settings - an empty style. Then format some paragraphs of un-styled text with individual attributes. And then apply the new style you created to them - there will be no changes because the style inherited no attributes from No Style.

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, mopperle said:

[No Style] which in fact seems to be a style, just with no settings.

It does have settings of course (there is never a style without settings) but less accessible. The settings are displayed in the 'style summary' field in the Text Styles panel. You can copy/paste for easier reading (or a search).

You also can edit the "[No Style]" settings and save it is custom default:

• Just assign "[No Style]" to a text,
• style the text as wanted,
• choose menu Edit > Defaults > Synchronize,
• choose menu Edit > Defaults > Save.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[MikeTO]

1 minute ago, thomaso said:

It does have settings of course (there is never a style without settings) but less accessible. The settings are displayed in the 'style summary' field in the Text Styles panel. You can copy/paste for easier reading (or a search).

You also can edit the "[No Style]" and save it is custom default:

• Just assign "[No Style]" to a text,
• style the text as wanted,
• choose menu Edit > Defaults > Synchronize,
• choose menu Edit > Defaults > Save.

No Style isn't a style and does not have settings, it's just a shortcut for the "remove style" command as well as an indicator that no text style has been selected. It cannot be edited. Styles based on No Style aren't actually based on a "No Style" text style but are based on nothing.

If it were a text style, selecting No Style would change the attribute summary to "No Style" just as selecting Body changes the attribute summary to "Body". The formatting summary at the top of the panel shows the attributes applied to the text and No Style isn't something that is applied.

Try this:

• Create a new document and a text frame. The default attributes (unless you've changed them) will be:

Font: Arial; Font weight: Normal; Italic: Off; Font width: Normal; Font size: 12 pt; Character spacing: 0 ‰; Baseline advance: 0 pt; Default kern: on; X offset: 0 pt; Y offset: 0 pt; Kern: 0 ‰; Scale X: 100 %; Scale Y: 100 %; Font shear: 0 °; Leading override: 0 pt; Underline: None; Strikethrough: None; No superscript/subscript; No caps; Leading override: auto; Typography script: Auto; Typography language: Auto; Optical alignment: None; No break: off; Spelling language: English (Canada); Hyphenation language: Auto; Character fill: C:0 M:0 Y:0 K:100; Character outline fill: none; Character outline: none; Character transparency: none; Highlight colour: none; Underline colour: none; Strikethrough colour: none; Optical alignment values; Hyperlink: None; OpenType: reset; Align paragraph: Left; Leading mode: % ideal; Start: Anywhere; Keep with previous: Off; Keep with next: 0; Keep together: Off; Prevent widows: Off; Prevent orphans: Off; Align to baseline grid: On; Auto hyphenation: Off; Hyphenate minimum length: 5; Hyphenate after first: 2 letters; Hyphenate before last: 2 letters; Maximum consecutive hyphens: Unlimited; Only between Paragraphs; Use space between same styles: Off; Use larger of space before and after; Leading: 100 %; Leading: 0 pt; Left indent: 0 in; Right indent: 0 in; First line indent: 0 in; Space before: 0 pt; Space after: 12 pt; Default tab stops: 0.5 in; Minimum word spacing: 80 %; Desired word spacing: 100 %; Maximum word spacing: 133 %; Minimum letter spacing: 0 %; Desired letter spacing: 0 %; Maximum letter spacing: 0 %; Minimum hyphen score: 0.0; Hyphenation zone: 0 in; Hyphenation zone capitals: 0 in; Hyphenation zone last word: 0 in; Hyphenation zone across columns: 0 in; Last line outdent: 0 in; Space between same styles: 0 pt; Tab stops: None; Paragraph decorations: off; List: None; List bullet string: "•\t"; List character style: ""; List tab stop indent: 0 in; List alignment: Left; Drop cap: Off; Drop cap height: 3; Drop cap characters: 1; Drop cap auto characters: On; Drop cap align left: Off; Drop cap scale descenders: Off; Drop cap text distance: 0 pt; Drop cap style: ""; Initial words: Off; Initial words count: 3; Initial words end characters: .?!:; Initial words style: ""

• Select [No Style] - the attributes won't change.
• Create a new style based on No Style and apply it to the text. The attributes will now be:

New Style Name (or whatever you called it)

• Select [No Style] which will remove New Style Name and revert the attributes to the long list above.
• Type some text and make it Times (character) and Bulleted (paragraph) or whatever you want. The attributes will now be:

Font: Times New Roman; Font weight: Normal; Italic: Off; Font width: Normal; Font size: 12 pt; Character spacing: 0 ‰; Baseline advance: 0 pt; Default kern: on; X offset: 0 pt; Y offset: 0 pt; Kern: 0 ‰; Scale X: 100 %; Scale Y: 100 %; Font shear: 0 °; Leading override: 0 pt; Underline: None; Strikethrough: None; No superscript/subscript; No caps; Leading override: auto; Typography script: Auto; Typography language: Auto; Optical alignment: None; No break: off; Spelling language: English (Canada); Hyphenation language: Auto; Character fill: C:0 M:0 Y:0 K:100; Character outline fill: none; Character outline: none; Character transparency: none; Highlight colour: none; Underline colour: none; Strikethrough colour: none; Optical alignment values; Hyperlink: None; OpenType: reset; Align paragraph: Left; Leading mode: % ideal; Start: Anywhere; Keep with previous: Off; Keep with next: 0; Keep together: Off; Prevent widows: Off; Prevent orphans: Off; Align to baseline grid: On; Auto hyphenation: Off; Hyphenate minimum length: 5; Hyphenate after first: 2 letters; Hyphenate before last: 2 letters; Maximum consecutive hyphens: Unlimited; Only between Paragraphs; Use space between same styles: Off; Use larger of space before and after; Leading: 100 %; Leading: 0 pt; Left indent: 0.25 in; Right indent: 0 in; First line indent: 0 in; Space before: 0 pt; Space after: 12 pt; Default tab stops: 0.5 in; Minimum word spacing: 80 %; Desired word spacing: 100 %; Maximum word spacing: 133 %; Minimum letter spacing: 0 %; Desired letter spacing: 0 %; Maximum letter spacing: 0 %; Minimum hyphen score: 0.0; Hyphenation zone: 0 in; Hyphenation zone capitals: 0 in; Hyphenation zone last word: 0 in; Hyphenation zone across columns: 0 in; Last line outdent: 0 in; Space between same styles: 0 pt; Tab stops: None; Paragraph decorations: off; List: Bullet; List bullet string: "•\t"; List character style: ""; List tab stop indent: 0.25 in; List alignment: Left; Drop cap: Off; Drop cap height: 3; Drop cap characters: 1; Drop cap auto characters: On; Drop cap align left: Off; Drop cap scale descenders: Off; Drop cap text distance: 0 pt; Drop cap style: ""; Initial words: Off; Initial words count: 3; Initial words end characters: .?!:; Initial words style: ""

• Select [No Style] - the formatting doesn't change - it's still Times and Bulleted because No Style isn't a style and has no defined attributes.

[walt.farrell]

19 minutes ago, thomaso said:

You also can edit the "[No Style]" settings and save it is custom default:

• Just assign "[No Style]" to a text,
• style the text as wanted,
• choose menu Edit > Defaults > Synchronize,It
• choose menu Edit > Defaults > Save.

It's more complex than that, though I can see how one might think that is changing the definition of No Style (and I have thought that myself).

I don't fully understand it, but here, for example, are two pieces of text. The text in the Text Frame and the Artistic Text are both "No Style":

 

 

 

[mopperle]

Thanks to lacerto, Mike and Walt, I understood now quite well. But IMHO there is an inconsistency in how Affinity handles the formatting of text:

When I format text via the menu bar, e.g. by selecting some words and format as "Bold" and then click on [No Style] (or a new style based on [New Style] with no changes), I expected that the formatting done via the menu bar would be removed, which is not the case.

Only when I format some words as "Bold" via the text style "Strong", clicking then on [No Style] the formatting will be removed.

Quite confusing and also not very logical. Formatting text/paragraphs via the menu bar AND styles can generate a mess.

[thomaso]

2 hours ago, MikeTO said:

No Style isn't a style and has no defined attributes.

You may want to name or call it whatever, of course any text appearance has a style and any style is set / defined somewhere. As response to @mopperle's questions I don't care or mind whether the formatting for "[No Style]" is saved in the Text Styles panel, in a menu or in a .preset, .propcol or .dat file. To me it is sufficient to know that "[No Style]" is defined somewhere and that I may define its look if wanted.

"[No Style]" can even get applied as "Base Style" via menu Text > Reapply Base Styles:
Create a text -> assign "[No Style]" -> modify some attributes -> choose "Reapply Base Styles".

2 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

It's more complex than that, though I can see how one might think that is changing the definition of No Style (and I have thought that myself).

I don't fully understand it, but here, for example, are two pieces of text. The text in the Text Frame and the Artistic Text are both "No Style":

No wonder, imho. Unlike a fully custom style the "[No Style]" doesn't know 'local overrides' and thus doesn't show the + symbol behind its name. Nevertheless, your shown confusion may also occur with "body", for instance:

Like a saved style "body" can be applied to various texts with quite different designs (> style attributes) also the "[No Style]" can be applied to many different designs. Some users even create complex layouts with different text styles but keep them all set as instances of "[No Style]" … they simply ignore the specific Text Styles panel and feature.

[Old Bruce]

48 minutes ago, mopperle said:

When I format text via the menu bar, e.g. by selecting some words and format as "Bold" and then click on [No Style] (or a new style based on [New Style] with no changes), I expected that the formatting done via the menu bar would be removed, which is not the case.

Only when I format some words as "Bold" via the text style "Strong", clicking then on [No Style] the formatting will be removed.

Quite confusing and also not very logical. Formatting text/paragraphs via the menu bar AND styles can generate a mess.

This confusion is why I make and apply Paragraph and Character Styles and avoid using local overrides via the Context Menubar. I can also remove local overrides by using Text > Reapply Text Styles. Then there are the options available with the Right Click on a Paragraph or Character Style in the Text Styles panel.

[Martyn Folkes]

18 hours ago, thomaso said:

The settings are displayed in the 'style summary' field in the Text Styles panel. You can copy/paste for easier reading

How do you do this? I can't select the text or right click on it.