Frame and Column break create a new paragraph?

[mykee]

I'm also a bookworm, and my problem is that I need to move two lines of a paragraph to a new page. The Frame or Column break solution would be fine, but in this case it creates a new paragraph on the next page, which is not good, since the two lines still belong to the previous paragraph. The Line break solves the problem, but in the case of a text slip, a blank line remains, so it may cause a breakage error.

Is there an option to prevent the Frame and Column break from opening a new paragraph? Or is this a bug?

 

[walt.farrell]

I'm curious what  problem you have with the two lines being in a new paragraph?

And I'm not sure how those two breaks are expected to work.

 

[AlanPickup]

Are you using the link text frames? If you do not if you start typing in a new text frame it will think it is sperate. Using linked frames just carries on?

[Oufti]

4 hours ago, mykee said:

I need to move two lines of a paragraph to a new page. The Frame or Column break solution would be fine, but in this case it creates a new paragraph on the next page, which is not good, since the two lines still belong to the previous paragraph. The Line break solves the problem, but in the case of a text slip, a blank line remains, so it may cause a breakage error.

Is there an option to prevent the Frame and Column break from opening a new paragraph?

No, there is not. A Frame or Column break is a "stronger" break than a paragraph break. 

You could perhaps resize your text frame? 
Or, according to why you want these lines to shift on next page, you could choose to keep any number of lines together with the previous paragraph, or some other Paragraph > Flow option? 
Please, have a closer look here: 

 

[Oufti]

4 minutes ago, Oufti said:

Or […] you could choose to keep any number of lines together with the previous paragraph

Oups, sorry. I took the problem the reverse side… Here, it won't help.

[mykee]

2 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

I'm curious what  problem you have with the two lines being in a new paragraph?

And I'm not sure how those two breaks are expected to work.

 

I would like the number of lines at the bottom of the pages of the book to match, i.e. the two pages should be in mirror image in terms of the number of lines. Typography. I usually use Tracking to align the lines, but there may be a line mismatch between the two pages. In this case, I would send the last line of one paragraph to the other frame, but if I do this with Frame or Column break, it is taken as a new paragraph in the next frame, not a continuation of the paragraph. For example, you get first line indent. So it's like opening a new paragraph, not continuing the old one.

See my sample, this wrong:

 

I need this:

 

But if I press Column break or Frame break, it will be at the top of the next page with first line indent as a new paragraph:

[walt.farrell]

If you always want that amount of space at the bottom of the frame, perhaps you should either:

• Reduce the frame size, so the last line will be at the end, instead of 2 lines above; or
• Adjust the Text Frame panel properties, where you can specify the Bottom Inset.

[mykee]

I won't touch the frame, but thanks for the second tip, I'll check it out!

Since it is running text and the text can move, I don't like to change the frame or set a parameter that might cause problems later on when correcting the text. Bottom inset can be really useful in such cases, though. But if you use two columns, it would not be bad to break text within a paragraph without opening a new paragraph.

 

[Oufti]

I wonder why the two lines beginning by "— Mi van?" are not at the bottom of the left page? 

[walt.farrell]

32 minutes ago, Oufti said:

I wonder why the two lines beginning by "— Mi van?" are not at the bottom of the left page? 

Because @mykee has forced them to the next page,  because he wants every page to end with some blank space like that?

[Oufti]

Perhaps… As there are no tools and no special characters shown, I can't say. 

Could it possibly be because of some Flow option?

I wonder if @mykee does want this white space on each page? Or if it's only in this case when, as for some reason (perhaps flow options…), there is a short page on the left thus he wants to balance the two pages. 

 

8 hours ago, mykee said:

But if you use two columns, it would not be bad to break text within a paragraph without opening a new paragraph.

For multiple columns in a frame, you could tick the Balance text in columns option:

 

+++++++++++++++

 

Another idea

If you don't want to alter the Text Frame settings, you could also place an empty frame (2 lines high) snapped to the bottom of your text frame and give it a Jump Wrap Style setting, preventing the text to flow on it (une "réserve" en bas de page). 

(I fear not being very clear, please have a look here: https://affinity.help/publisher2/en-US.lproj/pages/Text/wrapText.html)

+++++++++++

15 hours ago, mykee said:

The Frame or Column break solution would be fine, but in this case it creates a new paragraph on the next page, which is not good, since the two lines still belong to the previous paragraph. The Line break solves the problem, but in the case of a text slip, a blank line remains, so it may cause a breakage error.

I am still confused about the fact that in first intention you wanted to use kind of a column break, which would anyway stick and flow with the text, as will the Line break you rejected for this reason… 

At the contrary, solutions presented here will all stick to the page, regardless of the text content. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Oufti

[mykee]

@Oufti 

Quote

 there is a short page on the left thus he wants to balance the two pages. 

That's the point, that the lines at the bottom of each page should end at the same height, that's the goal.

You are right, Frame and Column break breaks also break up the text. I just didn't understand why if I break the text, it creates a new paragraph instead of continuing the previous one in the style (so no indentation and new paragraph in a new column/frame, as in Line break.

[mykee]

13 hours ago, Oufti said:

I wonder why the two lines beginning by "— Mi van?" are not at the bottom of the left page? 

I didn't understand this either, why didn't you leave this part at the bottom of the previous page and put it in a new frame when it is two lines long. But I got over that. Maybe it didn't fit because of the Baseline Grid alignment, I don't know.

[walt.farrell]

15 minutes ago, mykee said:

You are right, Frame and Column break breaks also break up the text. I just didn't understand why if I break the text, it creates a new paragraph instead of continuing the previous one in the style (so no indentation and new paragraph in a new column/frame, as in Line break.

If using the Bottom Inset doesn't resume the problem, for another solution you can assign a different Paragraph Text Style to the new paragraph, and give it whatever indentation, etc, that you want it to have.

[PaulEC]

I'm probably over simplifying this, but, as I understand it, the only problem is the "new paragraph" at the top of the second page, so why not just remove the indent using the Text Ruler. (It might not be technically correct, but it should look right!) 

 

[Oufti]

2 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

you can assign a different Paragraph Text Style to the new paragraph, and give it whatever indentation, etc, that you want it to have.

1 hour ago, PaulEC said:

why not just remove the indent using the Text Ruler. (It might not be technically correct, but it should look right!) 

Both of these solutions have the inconvenient that they will remain if the text flows thereafter. 

++++++++++++++++

I think the point is not finding How to shift the two last lines of right page to the next page but How not to have the two last lines of left page shifting to the right page… 

2 hours ago, mykee said:

I didn't understand this either, why didn't you [it's surely not me…] leave this part at the bottom of the previous page and put it in a new frame when it is two lines long. But I got over that. Maybe it didn't fit because of the Baseline Grid alignment, I don't know.

I still believe that this unwanted shifting of the last lines to the right page could be caused by some of the paragraph Flow options (perhaps also linked with Baseline grid option).

For example, when you have successive two- or three-lines paragraphs at the bottom of a page, and if in paragraph flow options widow or orphan lines are prohibited or if you choose the paragraph to remain solidaire with the first line(s) of the next paragraph, you can have unwanted jumps… 

The many options in this part of the interface need a comprehensive exploring to embrace all its intricacies…  Some experiment helps. 

 

 

@mykee A screen capture of your Paragraph panel with Flow options could also be useful… 

[PaulEC]

1 minute ago, Oufti said:

Both of these solutions have the inconvenient that they will remain if the text flows thereafter. 

Going on the original post, I thought the problem was to get rid of the new paragraph setting after using a break to balance the length of the text on the two facing pages! (Obviously if any text is added or removed the position of this break will have to be reset to keep the text on the two pages balanced!)

[walt.farrell]

1 hour ago, Oufti said:

Both of these solutions have the inconvenient that they will remain if the text flows thereafter. 

But the text in the new paragraph, even after reflowing, will look exactly like the text in the previous paragraph. 

Anything you do, except the earlier suggestions of changing the Bottom Inset or changing the actual size of the Text Frames will have issues, and you have not yet (that I have seen) explained why these solutions are not appropriate. Nor, that I can recall, have you explained why you want that extra white space.

So it is difficult for us to understand all the constraints you seem to have.

[Oufti]

I am sorry. I am not the OP. 

And I agree with you that many of the proposed solutions imply a local change, wether in the text (e.g. inserting a section break) wether on the page (frame based solutions). 

My opinion is that there could be a better global setting of the paragraphs flow (and when there are still pages to balance, I would then change Bottom inset or use an extra "wrapping frame" at the bottom of the page).  

[walt.farrell]

10 minutes ago, Oufti said:

My opinion is that there could be a better global setting of the paragraphs flow

With what kind of options? What do you think is needed?

[Old Bruce]

My first thought from looking at the screenshots from @mykee is I wonder if there is maybe a "Keep Paragraph together" setting turned on in the Paragraph Style.  It certainly looks like it to me. Without a document that exhibits this problem we will all be speculating ad nauseam and the solution may get presented and missed.

Other than that did you try a line break (not a new paragraph. Use Shift +Return) in the bottom of the text on the right hand page? If yes did you still get the indent?

[Oufti]

1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

1 hour ago, Oufti said:

My opinion is that there could be a better global setting of the paragraphs flow

With what kind of options? What do you think is needed?

For body text and such long lines, I would only tick No widow and No orphan, without any other contraint.

(But I don't know this language nor the document and its settings. So my advice to @mykee would be simply "Look in that part of the interface and experiment, as I showed in the video", or show us how it looks like.)

++++++++++++++

1 hour ago, Old Bruce said:

My first thought from looking at the screenshots from @mykee is I wonder if there is maybe a "Keep Paragraph together" setting turned on in the Paragraph Style.  It certainly looks like it to me. Without a document that exhibits this problem we will all be speculating ad nauseam and the solution may get presented and missed.

I totally agree with your last sentence. Nevertheless my suspicion goes also towards one of the many settings for keeping paragraphs together. 

— BTW, inserting a Line break was disregarded by the OP:

On 8/2/2023 at 11:35 AM, mykee said:

The Line break solves the problem, but in the case of a text slip, a blank line remains, so it may cause a breakage error.

 

[mykee]

Line break was the first one I tried. The first one breaks the text into a new line, and the second one adds an extra blank line, which moves the text to the other side. So two line breaks are added to the text.

The No widow and No orphan options are on by default, which is why the slides at the bottom of the page are there, because Affinity enforces them. It would be too complicated to have an option to make the rows at the bottom of the page equal.

In 98% of the cases I use the trick of using Character -> Tracking on shorter/longer paragraphs to gain or add an extra line. But there are times when Tracking can't be used because there is no paragraph, and in those cases it would be nice to have some solution where an extra line could be sent to the other frame without breaking the text. For this reason, I tried Frame or Column Break, where I was surprised to see that it creates a new paragraph instead of a plain break (like Line break).

 

[walt.farrell]

6 hours ago, mykee said:

The No widow and No orphan options are on by default, which is why the slides at the bottom of the page are there, because Affinity enforces them. It would be too complicated to have an option to make the rows at the bottom of the page equal.

Nothing is set on in the Flow options by default. If they're on for you, perhaps you should just turn them off.

And if they're on by default in a new document, you may need to reset your defaults.

[thomaso]

22 hours ago, mykee said:

That's the point, that the lines at the bottom of each page should end at the same height, that's the goal.

On 8/2/2023 at 6:21 PM, mykee said:

Since it is running text and the text can move, I don't like to change the frame or set a parameter that might cause problems later on when correcting the text.

6 hours ago, mykee said:

it would be nice to have some solution where an extra line could be sent to the other frame without breaking the text. For this reason, I tried Frame or Column Break

Your conditions …

1. causing a break
2. without any manual addition within the text
3. and no change to the text frame properties
4. while paragraph flow options feel insufficient for you / for individual spots

… sound a bit paradox and might be solved only without any change of text / text frames directly. – Then, how about an additional object that causes a wanted break by  text wrap? (could be stored as asset or on an extra master page)