non-destructive raw editing... how, exactly?

[jimh12345]

I was excited to see that V2 has non-destructive raw editing.  But when I tried it, nothing has changed - I still have to "commit" the raw edits, and after that they're baked in.  If I go back to "develop" all the adjustments are set to zeros. 

What am I missing?

[kaffeeundsalz]

Did you watch the official video about non-destructive RAW development? If so, what happens when you follow the instructions?

 

[jimh12345]

I'll check that out, thanks.

[rcsilber]

This feature alone is worth the price of admission. I've spent a good part of the day with the videos to learn how to use the new features. 😉

[jimh12345]

Ok I admit it - I hate videos, find them slow and tedious.   But there's an explanation in Help/QuickStart Guide:  the default is still 'destructive', you have to choose the new non-destructive workflow. 

"Any changes applied through the Persona are non-destructive and are loaded as a RAW layer if the Persona’s RAW Layer (Embedded) or RAW Layer (Linked) output option is selected on the context toolbar. Being non-destructive, you can get back to the Develop Persona by double-clicking on the RAW layer’s thumbnail."

If this works well - for example, has good shadow/highlight recovery - it's going to be da bomb. 

[spiderpod7d]

Hi all

I selected the suggested embedded option and the raw does work and well. However when you try to run the Topaz noise AI plug in it is not selectable. You have to rasterize the raw layer to be able to do this. Once rasterized you lose the ability to go back to the raw layer because it is now a standard pixel layer defeating the point of saving the raw layer in the first place.

When applying a destructive filter from the filter menu you the assistant rasterizes the raw layer burning in the raw setting and again converting the raw layer to a standard pixel layer

[jimh12345]

After fiddling with this on a couple of Nikon NEFs, I can say that it works, and so far it seems like I can get a result just about as good as Capture One.   It's a bit awkward, flipping back and forth between "personas",  but not nearly as awkward as exporting from C1 and then realizing later I wanted more shadow recovery.   I think Serif has done it.

[spiderpod7d]

Hi Jim

I too have Nikon .NEF files. I am not suggesting the image quality isn't great I am experiencing not being able to reopen the raw layer after applying a plugin or destructive filter (ie: haze filter) because the raw layer has been rasterized by the filter.

Could you try this and report please. I also use TopaZ Denoise AI which won't work unless you manually rasterize the raw layer. Could you try either of these technics and see if this occurs to you too?

 

Thanks,

Doug

 

[jimh12345]

I don't have any plugins, but I did try the Haze Removal filter and was still able to go into Develop, see the values of previous raw adjustments, and change them.   Seems I still had a 'raw' layer to work with.  

[spiderpod7d]

Hi Jim

 

Thanks for testing this I will try again.

Appreciate your time doing this

[phoenixart]

On 11/10/2022 at 7:46 AM, jimh12345 said:

Ok I admit it - I hate videos, find them slow and tedious.   But there's an explanation in Help/QuickStart Guide:  the default is still 'destructive', you have to choose the new non-destructive workflow. 

"Any changes applied through the Persona are non-destructive and are loaded as a RAW layer if the Persona’s RAW Layer (Embedded) or RAW Layer (Linked) output option is selected on the context toolbar. Being non-destructive, you can get back to the Develop Persona by double-clicking on the RAW layer’s thumbnail."

If this works well - for example, has good shadow/highlight recovery - it's going to be da bomb. 

How do I activate that option?

I don't see the Output drop-down menu:

[spiderpod7d]

Hi All

I determined that I need to create another layer above the raw layer to do any destructive processing with filters or add-ons. If the destructive changes are applied to the raw layer it becomes rasterized automatically and use loose it as a raw file.

[jimh12345]

3 hours ago, phoenixart said:

How do I activate that option?

I don't see the Output drop-down menu:

 

Are you possibly running V1 and not V2?  Here's how it should look:

[R C-R]

19 minutes ago, jimh12345 said:

Are you possibly running V1 and not V2?

It looks like @phoenixart 's screenshot is showing the V2 Persona icons, so I think it can't be V1. But I have no idea why the Output: item is not showing on the context toolbar.

Weird.

[walt.farrell]

4 hours ago, phoenixart said:

How do I activate that option?

I don't see the Output drop-down menu:

From that screenshot it looks like you've already Developed the image once, and gone back to the Photo Persona, and then re-entered the Develop Persona.  The option to do the non-destructive development is only the first time you Develop it, not the second.

[phoenixart]

2 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

From that screenshot it looks like you've already Developed the image once, and gone back to the Photo Persona, and then re-entered the Develop Persona.  The option to do the non-destructive development is only the first time you Develop it, not the second.

Correct, but on Serif's official tutorial it looks different, though I understand it's just a UI thing as the option at that point is disabled, but that throw me off for a moment.

That said, I thought the non-destructive raw development would apply to anything, like with Adobe camera raw, which is very handy.

Instead, in Affinity Photo, it only applies to an actual raw file the first time it's opened. Quite a missed opportunity there, hopefully it will be extended in the future.

[walt.farrell]

7 hours ago, phoenixart said:

Correct, but on Serif's official tutorial it looks different, though I understand it's just a UI thing as the option at that point is disabled, but that throw me off for a moment.

 

For that screenshot, are you talking about the Output field not being selectable? I've seen something about that, too, but that didn't seem to be what was being discussed earlier in this topic. Sorry if I misunderstood. I don't remember what I saw, but I'll try to find it.

7 hours ago, phoenixart said:

That said, I thought the non-destructive raw development would apply to anything,

It does not give you a pixel layer, so it won't work with things that require a pixel layer. You would need to duplicate it and rasterize the duplicate when you have functions that require pixels. I hope that's mentioned in the Help, but I haven't looked at that yet.

[walt.farrell]

Found it faster than I thought. If you can't select the Output field in the Develop Persona, you're probably configured to use the Apple RAW engine rather than the Serif Labs RAW engine (Assistant Manager, Develop). The non-destructive RAW editing works only with Serif's engine.

[jimh12345]

Ok, stop the music.  I guess I misunderstood this whole "non-destructive" thing.   If you Develop the raw file, then go to Photo and do anything that modifies pixels - like cloning - you're immediately working with a pixel layer, and further edits to the raw file won't affect that layer.  Is that basically it? 

[spiderpod7d]

Yup

 

That is what is happening to me at the moment with V2

[jimh12345]

[Sigh.]   For a while there, I thought we really had something.   😞

 

[spiderpod7d]

Did you try it yourself to verify?

[Murfee]

25 minutes ago, jimh12345 said:

Ok, stop the music.  I guess I misunderstood this whole "non-destructive" thing.   If you Develop the raw file, then go to Photo and do anything that modifies pixels - like cloning - you're immediately working with a pixel layer, and further edits to the raw file won't affect that layer.  Is that basically it? 

Modifying pixels is destructive, why not clone on a new pixel layer. The original raw can still be edited non destructively in the Develop Persona... but depending on these new edits your cloned pixel layer could look a bit strange because it will not get the same edits

[spiderpod7d]

That's what I am doing. If I update the raw layer I then replace the Duplicated pixel layer with the new created one.

It's a pain but at least I still have a raw layer I can modify if need be

[jimh12345]

14 minutes ago, Murfee said:

Modifying pixels is destructive, why not clone on a new pixel layer. The original raw can still be edited non destructively in the Develop Persona... but depending on these new edits your cloned pixel layer could look a bit strange because it will not get the same edits

But how is that really any different from what we had before? 

In my case, if I want to change the Raw again, I go back to Capture One, edit differently, export, and import to AP as a new base layer. Same thing here, just a lash-up within a single application.