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William Overington

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4 minutes ago, Wosven said:

Here a fun example, with with various verbs and the help of the DeepL translation:

French: « Il dit une blague, il raconte une histoire, il relate son aventure, il récite ses tables de multiplication, il conte un livre de Perrault à l'école primaire. »

English: “He tells a joke, he tells a story, he relates his adventure, he recites his multiplication tables, he tells a book by Perrault in primary school.”

(The fun part is that the translation mostly use "to tell", sort of killing the demonstration.)

Reuse of the word “tell” as a translation of « raconte » seems an odd choice, given that English offers “recount” as a perfectly good alternative.

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7 hours ago, William Overington said:

the United Kingdom National Body

I’m not aware of a body whose official name is “the United Kingdom National Body”. The one which deals with ISO standards is the British Standards Institution, isn’t it?

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8 minutes ago, Alfred said:

So, an extra automated telephone banking system…

9 minutes ago, Alfred said:

Automated telephone banking works over the telephone,

And that's the magical trick! No need for reading, and that's perfect for people visually impaired… unless they use their computer and applications to read the text on screen, but in this case, the apps would have to know each of those codes, and it would be more maintenance to update them than having automated reconition of syllabes.

 

And again, what about subtleties? You can have simple sentences for simple cases, but, and especially for bank activity, I'd rather have the specific and needed vocabulary used when needed, and not a generic sentence. We can already see this problem on web site, with generic sentences used instead of ones related to your last actions, and we can't be sure what was done was exactly what we wanted.

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9 minutes ago, Wosven said:

especially for bank activity, I'd rather have the specific and needed vocabulary used when needed, and not a generic sentence

And that’s exactly what we have. Speech recognition for a limited set of words (e.g. numbers from zero to nine, ‘yes’, ‘no’, ‘transfer’, ‘confirm’, ‘cancel’) has been available for half a century.

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15 minutes ago, Alfred said:

And that’s exactly what we have. Speech recognition for a limited set of words

Possibly, but we don't like it in France, and it didn't take. We nearly went from employees at the wickets to vending machines or web sites.

I can remember an unpleasant moment, when trying to buy a train ticket from a remote location without Internet, and needing to do it on the phone. After few failed attempted calling this overpriced service, and giving the wrong answer in the last umpteenth questions, I ended up writing down the whole sequence of numbers, to avoid error and finalize successfully the call.

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32 minutes ago, Alfred said:

And that’s exactly what we have. Speech recognition for a limited set of words (e.g. numbers from zero to nine, ‘yes’, ‘no’, ‘transfer’, ‘confirm’, ‘cancel’) has been available for half a century.

I never use the speech option, I always press the buttons!

William

 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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3 hours ago, William Overington said:

I suppose that a fourth landscape panel between the centre panel and the rightmost panel could be added for another sentence, and a free-standing sign could then be placed somewhere in the art gallery where a visitor would notice it part way through the visit.

art_gallery_sign_23.thumb.jpg.351d7250157696daba87e0f765cf7ccd.jpg

William

 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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17 minutes ago, William Overington said:

art_gallery_sign_23.thumb.jpg.8476a77150082d88520957cb4f4727af.jpg

 

William

 

Did you mean to say !125, William? Your list of code numbers and English localizations tells me that !128 means “The following question has been asked.” but in this example there isn’t anything following the code number!

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41 minutes ago, Alfred said:

Did you mean to say !125, William? Your list of code numbers and English localizations tells me that !128 means “The following question has been asked.” but in this example there isn’t anything following the code number!

It is interesting that now that I have deleted the incorrect file, your quoting of it has gone too.

William

 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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1 minute ago, William Overington said:

It is interesting that now that I have deleted the incorrect file, your quoting of it has gone too.

Interesting, perhaps, but (given that it was an uploaded file rather than merely a link to somewhere) not terribly surprising.

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23 minutes ago, William Overington said:

I have now replaced the original picture with a corrected version.

William

 

Since !983 means “Thank you for visiting.” I would have thought that the related question “Are you enjoying your visit?” should follow that sentence in the list rather than preceding it; i.e. I would expect its code to be !984 instead of !982.

By the way, the list of codes could do with sorting. The numbers are currently somewhat jumbled up.

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27 minutes ago, Alfred said:

Since !983 means “Thank you for visiting.” I would have thought that the related question “Are you enjoying your visit?” should follow that sentence in the list rather than preceding it; i.e. I would expect its code to be !984 instead of !982.

Well, I deliberately put it before.

I have the idea that

Welcome.

is near the entrance,

that Are you enjoying your visit? with some translations and a QR code is about a third of the way round,

then

Are you enjoying your visit? with just the glyph is mounted on a wall about two-thirds of the way round, in the hope that visitors will recognise the glyph from by the entrance and from the sign at about a third of the way round.

I now realise that I had not mentioned that the MoMA sign that inspired this sign is such that it is seen as someone reenters the foyer, which is on the ground floor,  from the stairs or the lift. So for people entering from West 53rd Street that sign is with its back to them.

William

 

 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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Here is a link to a video that includes MoMA's new foyer, and an extra part which I will not mention so that you can enjoy it when it happens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xow7uFwGr0

William

 

 

 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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16 hours ago, William Overington said:

I do not understand why, because as far as I am aware, each Chinese character encodes a word, not a whole sentence.

That is why. You can create many more sentences if you encode words/concepts than entire sentences. There is a reason why all human languages construct sentences from words. They may use different grammar and syntax, but they all construct complex ideas (sentences) from simple concepts (words).

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What I do not understand is why some people say to use Chinese.

I can understand when people say to use English and online translation instead. I understand that, though I don't agree that using English and machine translation makes every possible use of localizable sentences pointless. Provenance of knowing a translation is correct is important. For the images in this thread I have used Google Translate, and some of the translations have a note that a human has verified it as correct. Yet I am not congruently certain that all of the translations that I have used are correct. Well, here I am using those purported translations to produce some art. A balance of getting the ideas published with possibly minor errors, balanced with doing nothing unless I pay a commercial translating service.

I often use Google translate to get an idea of an English meaning of something that is not in English.

For example, for this song, I found the lyrics on the web and got an idea of the meaning using Google translate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVJDKlhM78U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjkPwhN6zho This video has German subtitles available.

Yet if I wanted to write an email to an art gallery in Austria, would I be confident that a translation into German would convey the meaning that i intended?

What if it were a message of greater importance to somewhere?

The central feature of localizable sentence technology is that localization does not need any analysis of syntax. For the set of sentences encoded and for which a sentence.dat file is available, the localization process is simply replacing a code number by a string of text characters. That string of text characters having been produced by a human translator at some previous time.

I appreciate that context is important, which is why I envisage an end user encoding a message using a cascading menu system.

A standardization document for translators setting up the system would have context information.

So, for example, the sentence

It is spring.

would have context information of being a season of the year, not a sentence about a source of water emerging from hills or a part of a machine.

William

 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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15 minutes ago, William Overington said:

For the images in this thread I have used Google Translate, and some of the translations have a note that a human has verified it as correct.

I have come across quite a few ‘verified’ translations that were eyebrow-raising.

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4 minutes ago, Alfred said:

I have come across quite a few ‘verified’ translations that were eyebrow-raising.

Was that with Google translate?

So were the translations themselves not correct in the first place, regardless of any purported verification?

So does that support having localizable sentence technology where each translation would have been made previously by a human translator for whom the target language is the translator's native language?.

William

 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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22 minutes ago, William Overington said:

Was that with Google translate?

Yes, it was.

22 minutes ago, William Overington said:

So were the translations themselves not correct in the first place, regardless of any purported verification?

Exactly so.

23 minutes ago, William Overington said:

So does that support having localizable sentence technology where each translation would have been made previously by a human translator for whom the target language is the translator's native language?

I don’t think that this necessarily addresses the problem of rogue translations. Some of the ‘verified’ Google translations may be machine translations which humans have marked as correct, but Google also invites users to provide alternative (supposedly better) translations. And you only need to look at the numerous threads on these forums where users have suggested improvements to the wording of tooltips and menu items.

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1 hour ago, William Overington said:

What I do not understand is why some people say to use Chinese.

I don't think anyone has said to use Chinese. We have used it as an example of a pictographic language that works and is in common use today, and as an illustration of the fallacies we perceive in your approach which is also trying to use a pictographic approach.

-- Walt
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18 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

I don't think anyone has said to use Chinese. We have used it as an example of a pictographic language that works and is in common use today, and as an illustration of the fallacies we perceive in your approach which is also trying to use a pictographic approach.

What fallacies do you (plural?) perceive in my approach please?

William

 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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2 hours ago, William Overington said:

What fallacies do you (plural?) perceive in my approach please?

For one, the extremely limited vocabulary you have by trying to encode complete sentences, as another user mentioned above.

For another, the difficulty that you'll have without some Standard that codifies how this system will be used. And beyond that you still need the web infrastructure and applications to enable the translation (as also mentioned before) before it can begin to be useful.

And the Standard(s) will also need to include all the sentences and the mapping betwen the sentences and code numbers, or things will become a mess very quickly if this starts being used.

-- Walt
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@walt.farrell

Thank you for replying.

I have found elsewhere that often when someone makes a comment about my ideas that, upon being asked to give reasons, either declines to do so, or just does not reply.

So thank you.

18 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

For one, the extremely limited vocabulary you have by trying to encode complete sentences, as another user mentioned above.

In relation to the set of all sentences that someone might reasonably want to use in a conversation, the number of complete sentences encoded would be a tiny subset.

However, for some particular situations, such as seeking information through the language barrier about relatives and friends after a disaster, a set of a few hundred sentences could be a very effective way of proceeding.

Here are some links that together explain my ideas for this. I realize that it is in bits and from various dates and needs writing up and some more sentences added, but the documents together give an overview of my thinking. I have put them in the order that I think best.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/slide_show_about_localizable_sentences.pdf

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/A_List_of_Code_Numbers_and_English_Localizations_for_use_in_Research_on_Communication_through_the_Language_Barrier_using_encoded_Localizable_Sentences.pdf

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/locse027.pdf

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/localizable_sentences_the_novel_chapter_042.pdf

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/localizable_sentences_the_second_novel_chapter_002.pdf

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/localizable_sentences_the_second_novel_chapter_006.pdf

----

A set of sentences could be useful in communicating through the language barrier in accident and emergency departments in hospitals.

Here are some links to a project in use in France.

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Health/French-Nurse-s-translation-aids-people-from-200-countries

http://tralelho.fr/

18 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

For another, the difficulty that you'll have without some Standard that codifies how this system will be used. And beyond that you still need the web infrastructure and applications to enable the translation (as also mentioned before) before it can begin to be useful.

A standard is essential to the invention becoming widely used and useful in practice. 

I needed to produce something to make progress.

What I have produced as an encoding in my research is not necessarily what would be in an ISO standard, maybe not the collectiom of sentences that I have used, maybe not the encoding method. For me, the invention being implemented is what is important. If some of what I have produced is included, well, that would be nice, but is not essential.

Yes, an app would be needed, but would work offline. Though loading the app into the device and loading a sentence.dat file could be done using the web, and may well usually be the practice, but it is not absolutely essential.

So two leaps forward are needed, a standard and an app and some sentence.dat files based upon that standard.

18 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

And the Standard(s) will also need to include all the sentences and the mapping betwen the sentences and code numbers, or things will become a mess very quickly if this starts being used.

Yes.

In a similar manner to the ISO/IEC 10646 Standard and The Unicode Standard, which are synchronized together, the standard could be updated from time to time yet always building on the previous version.

William

 

 

Until December 2022, using a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 in England. From January 2023, using an HP laptop running Windows 11 in England.

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