Thank you for visiting.

[Wosven]

 

1 hour ago, William Overington said:

How did you produce that please?

I used this site, that permit having a "big" logo in the center (the other sites with bigger size logo wanted some fee...):

https://www.qrcode-monkey.com/en/#text

I paste the text and add a regular image (that I'll replace later with a vector element, to get a better quality).

 

I choose my options:

 

 

Next step, I open the SVG file in AD, to replace the image by vectors:

 

 

 

 

And now, I can save as SVG, or other formats.

[William Overington]

4 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

And how would one know they should do it?

 

3 hours ago, William Overington said:

That is a good question.

 

If one goes to Google and one searches for

Translation symbols

and then chooses images, and

if one goes to Google and one searches for

International translation symbols

and then chooses images, there ar various symbols that are about the translation process.

So maybe use of one of those symbols next to the QR code and next to the !983 would be the answer.

Maybe the !983 needs to be beneath the QR code rather than with the translations.

William

 

[AdamStanislav]

5 hours ago, William Overington said:

It means, in whichever language any person chooses to localize it into

QR codes encode essentially raw data. Language preference has nothing to with it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QR_code for more (albeit confusing) information.

[William Overington]

5 hours ago, William Overington said:

It means, in whichever language any person chooses to localize it into, the meaning of the sentence that in English is

Thank you for visting.

 

7 minutes ago, AdamStanislav said:

QR codes encode essentially raw data. Language preference has nothing to with it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QR_code for more (albeit confusing) information.

The language preference is not in the QR code.

The QR code contains a language-independent code.

The language preference is chosen by the choice, made by the end user, of whchever version of the sentence.dat file with respect to which the meaning of the language-independent code is to be localized.

So the sentence.dat file for English would have within it a line

983|Thank you for visiting.

The sentence.dat file for French would have within it a line

983|Merci pour votre visite.

So the app would gather the !983 from the QR code, remove the exclamation mark, which is there so as to indicate that the 983 is a code for a localizable sentence, not just a number or, say, an amount of money such as pounds, dollars, euros or whatever, then seek a line starting 983| in the sentence.dat file that is there for it to use, then display the text that is after the | character in that line of text.

So the text displayed depends on both the code number and which version of the sentence.dat file is used by the app.

William

 

 

[William Overington]

If any readers wish to explore the symbols further, here are lnks to some publications.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/localizable_sentences_the_novel_chapter_078.pdf

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/localizable_sentences_the_novel_chapter_042.pdf

In relation to that chapter, as my research has progressed, I have changed my mind about there being a glyph for each localizable sentence, so my policy is now to have a glyph for every encoded sentence.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/A_List_of_Code_Numbers_and_English_Localizations_for_use_in_Research_on_Communication_through_the_Language_Barrier_using_encoded_Localizable_Sentences.pdf

An earlier document with lots of glyphs, but no code numbers.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/locse027.pdf

Some readers might like the following slide show. The slides can be viewed in a web browser. However, if downloaded to local storage and viewed using Adobe Reader, a full screen presentation is displayed. In Adobe Reader, press the Enter key to move through the slide show, press Esc to end the slide show. Adobe Reader may present a warning about full screen slide shows may present themselves as something they are not, to gather information. Please know that the document is just a slide show, it does not gather any information.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/slide_show_about_localizable_sentences.pdf

William

 

 

 

[William Overington]

I publicised this thread in the Unicode mailing list. It is an email mailing list, posts are archived.

Here is a link to the archive page relevant to this topic.

https://corp.unicode.org/pipermail/unicode/2022-February/date.html

Yesterday the following post arrived.

https://corp.unicode.org/pipermail/unicode/2022-February/009941.html

I like to think of the glyphs as being glyphs for a language, Language Y, where Language Y only has what are whole sentences in other languages.

I use the language code x-y for Language Y. This is fine as the language code specification allows x- to be used for Private Use Language Codes. However, x-y is not necessarily unique to Language Y as it is a Private Use Language Code so anyone else can use it in any way they choose. Nevertheless the language code x-y is useful within my research.

So, yes the collection of glyphs and the meanings that I have assigned to them can be regarded as a language for some purposes.

Yet are the individual glyphs language-independent in the sense of expressing meaning in a language-independent manner?

I am not quite sure why but this seems to resonate with the Chinese Room.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room

Yet what about the word "just" in that mailing list post?

As I am a researcher I am happy to change my ideas in the light of evidence and developments, I am not locked in to what I have already produced if change leads to improvement.

William

 

[William Overington]

Here is a new version of the sign. In this version the code !983 appears twice. Once with the sentence expressed in each of several languages, and once below the QR code.

 

William

 

 

[walt.farrell]

Even the !983 is meaningless, though. For example, Google doesn't show anything for it.

I think You need a link to a URL that explains what you're doing (and, ideally, has links to the free applications that one can download, and directly to a web page that explains the meaning directly).

[Alfred]

23 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

I think you need a link to a URL that explains what you're doing (and, ideally, has links to the free applications that one can download, and directly to a web page that explains the meaning directly).

!81812345679

[William Overington]

48 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Even the !983 is meaningless, though. For example, Google doesn't show anything for it.

Well it is a code. The exclamation mark signals that it is a localizable sentence code rather than just a number or a sum of money in some currency.

Please compare and contrast the following.

983

!983

#983

£983

$983

48 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

I think You need a link to a URL that explains what you're doing (and, ideally, has links to the free applications that one can download, and directly to a web page that explains the meaning directly).

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/localizable_sentences_research.htm

Alas there is no app available as I do not have the knowledge, skill and facilities to produce one.

I cannot afford to pay anyone to produce an app.

But maybe producing an app will be given to some students as a group project. The app itself being really just a by-product of the group project where the main purpose is to get students working as a team and gaining experience of tackling a real project. Best not to have it as an individual student project in case it goes wrong, but as a group project for students for a week or two, or a training project in industry where if the app gets produced then people can publish papers, but the real purpose is about working as a team and learning how to produce an app for a mobile device. Such a project could be good, it involves a camera and accessing a data file and manipulating characters and producing output to a display.

 Maybe such an app will never be produced.

But an epsilon of a chance is better than a zero of a chance, so publishing my ideas is bnetter than not doing so.

I suppose I might win a million pounds on the Premium Bonds.

Or my novel might be published in paperback form and be a major success.

Or the movie of the novel might ...

The following chapter of my first novel might be of interest.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/localizable_sentences_the_novel_chapter_034.pdf

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/novel_plus.htm

There is a saying in the history of science

.> Chance favours the prepared observer.

In relation to some inventions, chance favours the inventor who poublishes.

William

 

[Wosven]

1 hour ago, William Overington said:

Please compare and contrast the following.

983

!983

#983

£983

$983

William,

This is meaningless for the common of people. When I first try to teach people about the eaiser way on PC to write accented character using Alt+0201, for example, I also need to explain that each character have a number and it's another way to write them without searching a glyphe panel.

And in other languages, you'll write: 983 €

For some people, simply reading this:

1 hour ago, William Overington said:

!983

#983

£983

$983

Will seems too complicated and you'll end up with a comment: "That's too complicated, you're a geek, speak in French and common language!" 

 

[William Overington]

35 minutes ago, Wosven said:

..., speak in French and common language!" 

Bonjour Madame,

J'ai écrit une fois une chanson en français.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/une_chanson.pdf

William

 

[William Overington]

46 minutes ago, Wosven said:

When I first try to teach people about the eaiser way on PC to write accented character using Alt+0201, for example, I also need to explain that each character have a number and it's another way to write them without searching a glyphe panel.

Many years ago I devised a scenario to encourage people to learn how to enter words with accented characters in them even if they did not know the language.

I called it The Café Äpfel and the idea was that text from ingredients lists from multilingual food packaging could be keyed. The Café Äpfel would have menus in English, French, German and the language of the musicians and singers who were performing in the café that evening. I had this idea of a television show series with each episode combining cookery, computing and music with actors playing the continuing characters and guest musicians and singers arriving as guest stars.

Well, a Portuguese band and singer would be fairly straightforward.

Once the musicians come from further afield the computing gets rather more complicated!

William

 

[Wosven]

20 minutes ago, William Overington said:

J'ai écrit une fois une chanson en français.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/une_chanson.pdf

It's really nice William, I'm certainly not a musician, but I can imagine it like some children songs or folk songs.

They always have some rythm — or lyrics — that stay in mind... and for the worst ones, as a joke, we tend to remind them to friends or coworkers in the morning to polute their day

[walt.farrell]

2 hours ago, William Overington said:

The exclamation mark signals that it is a localizable sentence code

Signals to whom?

It can't be very common or well-known if a Google search doesn't come up with anything.

[William Overington]

4 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Signals to whom?

!123

To anyone reading text where such a code appears, as in a graceful fallback situation.

I have included two other codes to demonstrate that.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/A_List_of_Code_Numbers_and_English_Localizations_for_use_in_Research_on_Communication_through_the_Language_Barrier_using_encoded_Localizable_Sentences.pdf

Here are links to two chapters of my first novel that explain the encoding.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/localizable_sentences_the_novel_chapter_046.pdf

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/localizable_sentences_the_novel_chapter_050_version_2.pdf

Or to software.

Or to an OpenType font that recognises such a sequence for the purpose of glyph substitution. For example, the sequence !983 could be replaced automatically by the glyph that is at the top of the artwork in the first post of this thread, but 983 or $983 or £983 would not be affected.

9 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

It can't be very common or well-known if a Google search doesn't come up with anything.

One needs to start somewhere.

There was a time when Google did not exist.

!987

William

 

[walt.farrell]

But if you propose including such a code on a sign in a public place, William, you cannot expect anyone to find your research paper or novels and bother to read them. They will simply shake their heads and go on their way, wondering what weird thing that symbol might mean.

That's why the use of a QR code was proposed for this. It can at least, if the user is interested enough, get them to a website that explains exactly what that symbol means. And it must do so without expecting them to have to visit other sites to do additional research or install additional apps.

Essentially, without an infrastructure in place, and probably some accepted standardization across the world,  the symbols are probably not useful.

[William Overington]

It would be possible to produce a similar sign for the sentence that in English is

Welcome.

This would use a different glyph, available in the font that I mentioned, the code !127 and a different QR code image and different text in each of the seven languages featured on the sign.

Such a sign could be placed near the entrance to the art gallery as both a functional sign and a work of art, complete with an interpretation panel mounted on a wall and leaflets available, referring to the two glyphs and possibly one or more other glyphs and localized text in many languages.

William

 

 

[AdamStanislav]

11 hours ago, William Overington said:

The exclamation mark signals that it is a localizable sentence code

Does it? Is that something you have decided or is it some standard that I have never heard of? I seem to have seen it signal the numbers are hexadecimal digits in some computer usage. I don’t recall ever hearing/seeing/reading it to signal a localizable sentence code. Of course, I may be too young as I have only started computing in 1965...

Seriously, I find the idea of having a code for every conceivable sentence a bit recondite. Chinese has 2400 most common glyphs to describe words, and it took 4000 years to evolve. A sequence of such glyphs forms a sentence that speakers of multiple languages can and do understand, both in China and other countries. Those glyphs have evolved from actual drawings of the things they represent. Yet, the odds of them being accepted for all languages are rather nugatory.

So how many unique fishing hooks are you planning to come up with for every sentence?

[William Overington]

4 hours ago, AdamStanislav said:

Does it? Is that something you have decided or is it some standard that I have never heard of? I seem to have seen it signal the numbers are hexadecimal digits in some computer usage. I don’t recall ever hearing/seeing/reading it to signal a localizable sentence code. Of course, I may be too young as I have only started computing in 1965...

Seriously, I find the idea of having a code for every conceivable sentence a bit recondite. Chinese has 2400 most common glyphs to describe words, and it took 4000 years to evolve. A sequence of such glyphs forms a sentence that speakers of multiple languages can and do understand, both in China and other countries. Those glyphs have evolved from actual drawings of the things they represent. Yet, the odds of them being accepted for all languages are rather nugatory.

So how many unique fishing hooks are you planning to come up with for every sentence?

> Does it?

> Is that something you have decided ...

Yes.

> ... or is it some standard that I have never heard of?

It is not a standard at the time of writing this post.

However, in 2019, following my application to the United Kingdom National Body, the United Kingdom National Body decided to forward the idea for a standard to the ISO/TC 37 committee. A member of the United Kingdom National Body offered to present the idea at the Plenary session of ISO/TC 37 due to be held in June 2020.

I prepared a slide show to explain the idea and this was accepted as suitable and a copy was sent to ISO/TC 37 by the United Kingdom National Body and the United Kingdom National Body was thanked for the document. There was a good possibility that the presentation would be included in the agenda for the meeting.

Alas, the pandemic arrived and the meeting did not take place.

I have placed the slide show on the web aand it is available from the following web page.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/localizable_sentences_research.htm

I am thinking that if ISO accepts the invention for encoding, the standard would include a sentence.dat file in English, as ISO documents are in English. Then each of the various National Bodies who choose to do so could translate the text in that sentence.dat file into the language or languages of their country.

That way, a collection of sentence.dat files would be produced.

If the invention is an ISO standard then it is likely that it would be implemented and the invention become mainstream.

From time to time additional sentences could be added into the system, in a similar manner to the way that characters are added to the ISO/IEC 10646 standard, to which Unicode is synchronized.

> I seem to have seen it signal the numbers are hexadecimal digits in some computer usage.

I was unaware of that. Thank you for saying.

> I don’t recall ever hearing/seeing/reading it to signal a localizable sentence code.

That is not unreasonable.

> Seriously, I find the idea of having a code for every conceivable sentence a bit recondite.

I needed to look up the meaning of the word 'recondite'.

https://www.lexico.com/definition/recondite

I have not suggested having a code for every conceivable sentence.

Over the number of years a number of people have originated that idea, then rejected it as if I had suggested it.

That issue is mentioned in a chapter of my first novel.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ngo/localizable_sentences_the_novel_chapter_010.pdf

> Chinese has 2400 most common glyphs to describe words, and it took 4000 years to evolve. A sequence of such glyphs forms a sentence that speakers of multiple languages can and do understand, both in China and other countries. Those glyphs have evolved from actual drawings of the things they represent. Yet, the odds of them being accepted for all languages are rather nugatory.

I needed to look up the word 'nugatory'.

https://www.lexico.com/definition/nugatory

That is interesting, but as far as I am aware, each Chinese character encodes a word, not a whole sentence.

Fundamental to the localizable sentence invention is that each encoded item is a complete, grammatically stand-alone sentence. So localization of a localizable sentence does not require any computer analysis of syntax, localization simply involves replacing a code number in a text stream with a string of text that has previously been translated into the target language by a human translator who is a native speaker of the target language.

Mention of Chinese characters has occured in relation to localizable sentences over the years. I do not understand why, because as far as I am aware, each Chinese character encodes a word, not a whole sentence. 

> So how many unique fishing hooks are you planning to come up with for every sentence?

I am not sure that I understand the use of the term 'fishing hooks' as an idiom.

I have not suggested that every possible sentence would be encoded.

Over the years a number of people have publicly acted as if I have, maybe some,, many, other peope have quietly dismissed my invention as a result of making that assumption.

The number of possible sentences is quite possibly infinite.

The set of all sentences that have ever been spoken or written is finite, yet huge.

Yet please consider the set of sentences that an automated lady on an automated telephone banking facility uses. A relatively small finite set, yet a useful facility for some tasks, such as moving money from a savings account to a debit card account without needing to speak to a human advisor, with an escape possibility if one needs to speak with a human advisor.

So, an extra automated telephone banking system could be introduced where a code number is sent from the bank's computer to the customer's mobile telephone rather than a voice message in a particular language. That code number cold then be converted to displayed text, or to speech, in the target language chosen by the customer. So that extra automated telephone banking system could be used with any language that is expressible using Unicode characters. The customer would choose a sentence.dat file for telephone banking that relates the code numbers to the customer's chosen target language.

For some particular applications, such as seeking information through the language barrier about relatives and friends after a disaster, a relatively smal set of encoded localizable sentences and their application could be a very useful facility. 

William

 

[Wosven]

7 hours ago, William Overington said:

Fundamental to the localizable sentence invention is that each encoded item is a complete, grammatically stand-alone sentence. So localization of a localizable sentence does not require any computer analysis of syntax, localization simply involves replacing a code number in a text stream with a string of text that has previously been translated into the target language by a human translator who is a native speaker of the target language.

I'm not sure that is usefull.

 

Look at the way Internet sites — and apps — work. Like Affinity Serif ones, for example.

You've got a server somewhere, providing all the datas (and translations) for the site and pages, sorted by language.
When you open a page, the browser will automatically select the language file depending on your location or OS settings. Only the datas for your langage will be send.
If needed, since you can be a stranger in this location, you'll be able to select another language in a list.
Or it's the main and first page option when visiting the web site of an international company.

This ensure that only the needed language datas are send, since sending and receiving datas has a cost for each part.

 

With apps, it's a little bit different: they'll install a list of various languages (10 for Affinity suite), and if you're lucky, one of those is yours, or you'll have to use one you're more at ease with.
Some apps, like Libre Office or TextPad, will allow you to download and install a bigger variety of languages.

The problem with this way, is that you possibly have a lot of unwanted datas installed.

 

How would your localized sentences work? Servers would only send a code and every possibilities would clutter the user device (they need to be installed somewhere), to only display one language?
Or would this device have only its language set installed?

But in this last case, what about subtilities subtleties?

If we can agree than a few handfuls of sentences can be pre-defined — like the first part of the Assimil methode, when you learn basic sentences —, it'll be harder when needing more complexe meanings.

We already face this problem when needing to adapt a web service to our needs, asking to modify some generic sentences to the specific meaning required. (We also face this in the Affinity apps, with translation problems, that can be misleading.)

 

That's why I'm not sure the idea of localized sentences reduce to a glyphe or code is useful or easy.

I suppose it's what they already try to do with emoticones. But depending of the fonts, those can look slighty different, and I don't always get the meaning, or find it subtly different. And depending of local habits and usages, the understanding can be completely different! (I use once the "confused" smiley here, and when it was a completely litteral meaning for me — the post was confusing me, and I couldn't understand the meaning or didn't thought it was relevant to the thread —, someone around the word thought I was insulting him of being dumb).

 

If it would be safer with simple sentences, how many of them should there be? And who will have to learn (or at least read) them all, to be able to find the right one in each case? Will they search for the right one or simply use the more common ones? Won't we feel lonely then, interaction with automated machines' sentences instead of humans?

There won't be anymore fun pictures of terrible translations from around the world... (supposing they know and use them):

https://ccci.am/lost-in-translation-7-funny-translation-fails/

 

[William Overington]

Bonjour Madame

Thank you for posting.

I am thinking about what you wrote.

I had not known of the Assimil methode.

I have found the following link.

https://www.assimil.com/en/articles/5-la-methode-assimil

> But in this last case, what about subtilities?

I am not sure as to what is the question.

Are you asking about rarely used sentences?

Could you ask the question in another way please?

William

 

 

 

[William Overington]

I am thinking that a total of five artworks are needed.

The latest version of the original sign, used as a free-standing sign, on its own, placed on the route to the exit from the art gallery.

A version of that sign, but for Welcome. with changes mutatis mutandis, including the code !127 used as a free-standing sign, near the entrance to the art gallery.

Three landscape panels, to be displayed in a horizontal row on a wall near the Welcome sign.

The leftmost panel havig at its left a reduced size version of the Welcome. sign and at its right a large, filled  rightwards pointing horizontal arrow, in green.

The centre panel has, centred near the top the glyph for Welcome. and most of the rest of the panel below the level of the glyph has an array of sentences, one in each of many languages, each having the message, localized into the language.

The symbol means Welcome.

The righmost panel is similar to the centre panel, except that the glyph is for the sentence Thank you for visiting. and the message in each of the languages is as follows.

The symbol means Thank you for visiting.

So as visitors enter there is an installation of a free-standing sign and three wall-mounted panels nearby.

So hopefully when leaving the art gallery, hopefully a visitor will recognise the glyph that has the assigned meaning Thank you for visiting.

I suppose that a fourth landscape panel between the centre panel and the rightmost panel could be added for another sentence, and a free-standing sign could then be placed somewhere in the art gallery where a visitor would notice it part way through the visit.

I wonde which sentence could be on that extra panel and the extra sign.

Maybe i need to think of a suitable sentence, design a glyph and designate a code number.

William

 

 

 

[Alfred]

7 hours ago, William Overington said:

So, an extra automated telephone banking system could be introduced where a code number is sent from the bank's computer to the customer's mobile telephone rather than a voice message in a particular language. That code number cold then be converted to displayed text, or to speech, in the target language chosen by the customer. So that extra automated telephone banking system could be used with any language that is expressible using Unicode characters. The customer would choose a sentence.dat file for telephone banking that relates the code numbers to the customer's chosen target language.

Automated telephone banking works over the telephone, so where does Unicode come into play? Existing systems already tell the user to ‘say “Yes” or press 1’, for example, and it’s clearly possible for such instructions to be issued in the user’s chosen language. Doing the translation at the receiving end is hugely inefficient, since it means that every phone would need to have the translation software installed (instead of having a single installation on the bank’s server).

1 hour ago, William Overington said:

Maybe i need to think of a suitable sentence, design a glyph and designate a code number.

You clearly enjoy designing glyphs for the sentences that you choose, but — if you need a single glyph for each sentence, which is debatable — I can’t see why a representation of the !nnn sequence couldn’t itself serve as the glyph for the designated code number.

[Wosven]

3 hours ago, William Overington said:

> But in this last case, what about subtilities?

I am not sure as to what is the question.

For example, when you begin to learn English, your learn the verb "to say" ("dire" in French, "decir" in Spanish).

And you'll use it in a lot of situations, because they try to teach you a varied vocabulary, but not extended lexical fields. Won't it be the same with such sentences? For them to be easily understood and translated?

Perhaps we're too talkative, but we have a lot of vocabulary in some fields, and each verb is important, not using a basic and simple one is what we're taught in primary school after reading, writing and counting.

 

Here a fun example, with various verbs and the help of the DeepL translation:

French: « Il dit une blague, il raconte une histoire, il relate son aventure, il récite ses tables de multiplication, il conte un livre de Perrault à l'école primaire. »

English: “He tells a joke, he tells a story, he relates his adventure, he recites his multiplication tables, he tells a book by Perrault in primary school.”

(The fun part is that the translation mostly use "to tell", sort of killing the demonstration.)

Depending of what we're saying, we'll use an appropriate verb. Or for conveying a special meaning, we'll use another: « il récite son aventure » / “he recites his adventure”, meaning that his way to tell the story seems fake, like if he didn't live it but forged it.

 

So, using localized sentences would use a simpler vocabulary, or would be complicated. Like using a site to translate sentences. We try with what first come in mind, and in doubt, or for precision, with usual or specific words.

But shouldn't it be done by real translator, able to convey meanings according to modern and local usages? Like we do translating again old texts to suit our modern era, instead of using old translation that nearly need to be translated for younger readers?