Layer order

[Olivier.A]

Hi,

The question might be simple, but are layer order applied bottom to top in a group ?

When you have normal layers above the background layer, these are applied from the background layer up. But is it the same when layers are in a group, like the screenshot below ?

Background, then White Balance, then Noise Reduction, etc... ? Or is it Background, then Curve, then Shadows & highlights ?

And is it also the case when layer are "inside" (as the folder is a pixel layer from the screenshot) a pixel layer ?$

Thanks !

[Pšenda]

As far as I know, the effect of layer adjustments and live filters only applies to group content. Therefore, if they are encapsulated in a group, then there must be a source layer to which they will be applied.

[walt.farrell]

2 minutes ago, Pšenda said:

As far as I know, the effect of layer adjustments and live filters only applies to group content. Therefore, if they are encapsulated in a group, then there must be a source layer to which they will be applied.

I think that's incorrect, Pšenda. If there is pixel content in the Group, then the effect of the adjustments will be limited to within the Group and will affect only that pixel content. Otherwise, if there is no pixel content in the Group, then the effects of the adjustments will carry through to the layers below.

[Pšenda]

Then Help is very confusing.

https://affinity.help/photo/English.lproj/pages/Adjustments/adjustment_applying.html

"Adjustment layers only affect layers which are below them. Alternatively, you can make an adjustment a child of a layer (or layer group), thereby affecting that layer (or layer group) only."

[R C-R]

5 hours ago, Pšenda said:

Then Help is very confusing.

As it often is....

[Olivier.A]

As it seems, there are no clear answer to this question.

It looks like, from my screenshot, that, all layers are merged together then applied to the background layer. As there are no pixel layer in the group, I'm wondering what are in fact the changes made...

Or is a folder just a way to group, and has no effect in the order of applying them to the layer below the group (here, the background layer).

 

[Ron P.]

I read your original post shortly after you posted it. I wasn't sure of an answer, because it is somewhat confusing. So I went looking. One place that I looked was in a Udemy course I took for Affinity Photo, by Simon Foster (drippycat here on the forums). Even with his explanation, it's still not that clear to me. Hopefully me posting will spark some others to respond.

First, Psenda's post comes closest to what happens. Adjustment Layers are applied to the layer immediately below it. In Simon's course he demonstrates this by using a Black & White adjustment layer and a Selective Color adjustment. When the Black & White adjustment is above the Selective Color (both are above the image), so the Layer Stack would be (from bottom to top), Image, Selective Color, Black & White), the Selective Color adjustment can alter the image. Moving the sliders you can see this. Even though what you're seeing is a Black & White image, the Selective Color can change parts of the image.

Now move the Selective Color above the Black & White. Try moving the sliders in the Selective Color, and there's no changes seen in the image. Why? Because the Selective Color adjustment needs to see the colors in the image, and the Black & White adjustment is blocking the colors.

Now for Groups, here's a quote from the Affinity Photo Online Help Layer Blending

Quote

For a layer group, the default blend mode is 'Passthrough'. This blend mode affects grouped layers in the following ways:

• If you have a filter in the group, the Passthrough blend mode will cause the filter to affect all other page content below it. If the group blend mode is changed to Normal, the filter's effect is restricted.
• For just an adjustment(s) in a group, Passthrough and any other blend mode will restrict the adjustment to just the group.
• If you have an adjustment above a fill layer in a group, the fill layer causes the adjustment to affect all other page content below it when blend mode is Passthrough.

Basically the order is Top-->Bottom, ie; they interact with the layer immediately below. Also what's important is how they interact with each other. The Blend Modes and Blend Ranges will affect this. It's not a simple answer.

I've never practiced grouping Live Filters and/or Adjustment Layers, main reason see above quote highlighted in red. So if you have nothing other than Adjustments in a Group, they're restricted to that group so can not affect the image you're wanting it to affect. Sort of like placing them in a room, then closing the door so they can't get out.

Hope that helps, if not one of the other more experienced members will probably be along to correct me, thus clarifying things for you.

 

[Pšenda]

1 hour ago, Olivier.A said:

Or is a folder just a way to group, and has no effect in the order of applying them to the layer below the group (here, the background layer).

If you move a pixel layer into the group, does it work the way you want?

[Ron P.]

This is why it's confusing, which I think is the intent of the Help File authors. According to the Help file, in my screenshot, the Background should be affected by the Live Filters and Adjustments I applied. But it's not. Before someone says, well you have a pixel layer (image) in each of the groups. Sorry, but I've already tested this without a pixel layer, just grouping the adjustments and grouping the live filters. Made no difference. So I see why Olivier.A poses the questions.

 

[Ron P.]

I'd say this is buggie. I can get them to work as the Help file states, but it requires turning the groups off and then on. See screen capture.

 

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Ron P.
Replaced screen capture with better quality one

[Pšenda]

33 minutes ago, Ron P. said:

But it's not.

Previously, it certainly worked so that the adjustments were applied only to the layers contained within the group (that's why I wrote my first reaction, because I used to deal with it). See:
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/12440-photo-group-adjustment-layers/&do=findComment&comment=57694

Then Serif apparently modified it, so if the group doesn't have any layer to which the adjustments could be applied, it's just a grouping of adjustments (group icon changes), and they apply (they should be applied) to the outer layer. See:

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/89005-photo-passthrough-layer-group-and-adjustment-layers/&do=findComment&comment=471787

But maybe there is a problem if there are more edits, or their connection with live filters, or some problem with the implementation of Passthrough, see

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/121156-grouping-layers/&do=findComment&comment=661198

[Ron P.]

Could it possibly be as designed bug? 

I just spent another 5 mins trying to figure this out. I kept getting different results. Sometimes it works like the help file says. More times it doesn't.

IMHO, I don't group any Live Filters or Adjustments. They're applied (nested) to the pixel layer and so far I've not worried about if it's going to affect the layer I need it to.

 

[Olivier.A]

1 hour ago, Pšenda said:

If you move a pixel layer into the group, does it work the way you want?

When I move the background layer inside the group at the bottom, I don't see any difference as when outside (and below) (first screenshot)

When I move the background layer inside the group at the top, the result is that no adjustment layer and live filter are applied (second screenshot)

 

[Olivier.A]

1 hour ago, Ron P. said:

the Background should be affected by the Live Filters and Adjustments I applied. But it's not.

It seems I can find a "rule", thanks to your test. Filter and adjustment layers are affecting the first pixel layer the find from the filter down. This determines which pixel layer has to be affected.

Following your grouping, let's take your adjustment group. Which pixel layer has to be affected, take any of the live/adjustment layer, and go down until you find one pixel layer. In your case this is the background layer inside the live filter group. If there were no pixel layer, then go further down, and you'll find the background layer at the very bottom.

Also, it seems that a group containing a pixel layer and adjustments are considered are a pixel layer by itself (that has adjustment, but basically a pixel layer. I'm pretty sure that not having a pixel layer in the live filter group, filter would affect background layer, and adjustment layer too.

Or if you like, a group containing a pixel layer + adjustment and filter, is equivalent to a pixel layer containing the same adjustment layer and filter.

Basically what @Pšenda said ( but differently)

Wha do you think ?

Edited January 19, 2022 by Olivier.A
added mention

[Olivier.A]

20 minutes ago, Olivier.A said:

a group containing a pixel layer + adjustment and filter, is equivalent to a pixel layer containing the same adjustment layer and filter.

Just did the test, and it works as said ! Wow.

The bottom group has it's own pixel layer (a crop of the bottom background layer). The pixel layer at the top is the same cropped pixel layer, with duplicated adjustment. Each cropped pixel payer are identical. The very bottom pixel layer is not affected at all.

[Olivier.A]

25 minutes ago, Hens said:

What is it that you want exactly?

The original question is : The question might be simple, but are layer order applied bottom to top in a group ?

And we might have derived a bit. But from the previous posts, it seems the answer is yes when there is a pixel layer inside that group.

25 minutes ago, Hens said:

What should be the outcome/result?

To know how I should place layer so that I get expect results. Sometimes layer order can give different outcomes, and depending if they are applied top to bottom or the way around can change the image.

[Old Bruce]

5 hours ago, Ron P. said:

Now move the Selective Color above the Black & White. Try moving the sliders in the Selective Color, and there's no changes seen in the image. Why? Because the Selective Color adjustment needs to see the colors in the image, and the Black & White adjustment is blocking the colors.

A slightly pedantic note: The B&W adjustment is not blocking, it is altering the colours. Changing them into tones of grey, therefore there are no colours for the Selective Colour adjustment to work with.