thomaso Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 > if you Group them then the text will scale along with graphics. Bruce, it already did scale for the OP, in both AD and APub. – His concern was the 'jumping' leading occurrence when drag-scaling, as illustrated in his video above and named as "leading ... super broken" in this topic. Quote macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wosven Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 9 minutes ago, thomaso said: Nope. They are two pairs of shoes Exactly! I completely forgot that there was also a leading option in the character panel, since I don't use it and tend to disable this in ID, to be sure whole paragraph respect the settings they've got. I'm not sure it could be imputed to a lack of coffee since at the time I should have already finish it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomaso Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 > I completely forgot that there was also a leading option in the character panel, since I don't use it and tend to disable this An according workflow for APub could be to 'disable' those options in the Character panel by keeping its section closed. This makes me wonder why the UI does not show the leading in the non-collapsible top section in the Paragraph panel – like the Character panel does for size, font, color. Jeremy Bohn 1 Quote macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KipV Posted May 24, 2020 Author Share Posted May 24, 2020 5 hours ago, Wosven said: Perhaps Leading override should be called "Baseline shift" or something else, since people not used to layout apps like QXD and ID seem to confuse the 2 and not use them properly. For me it is not so much the name that is confusing it's that the leading override box looks just like any other leading box. There is no clear indication it is much different then the others. If you let your mouse hover over the box for a couple of seconds a label comes up but otherwise I don't see how anyone would know. Given that what is in this box can disable the other boxes they need to have a text label that makes it very clear what you are doing. Under Paragraph > Spacing there is a text label for leading but what really needs the label is the leading override. Perhaps there should also be something in the regular leading box that shows you leading overrides is turned on. Quote New Internet Book Project | Another New Website Project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomaso Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 5 minutes ago, KipV said: I don't see how anyone would know. (...) they need to have a text label that makes it very clear what you are doing. Tutorials ... Affinity Help ... Q&A Forum (before reporting a bug) ... and finally conscious try & error = exercise & learn. Quote macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KipV Posted May 24, 2020 Author Share Posted May 24, 2020 Tutorials don't make up for poor user interface design. The fact I need to jump through this many hoops to make the simplest of typography adjustments is poor design. Jowday 1 Quote New Internet Book Project | Another New Website Project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomaso Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 As mentioned before: UI can't replace missing knowledge, in this case of typography and its various aspects, which indeed and 'simply' may be quite complex. APub is designed for professionals, like the instruments (~ UI panels) in a cockpit, not showing any tooltip at all but demand fundamental knowledge about physical aspects to be able to read –> interpret –> understand –> and use them correctly. > The fact I need to jump through this many hoops to make the simplest of typography adjustments is poor design. No, you don't need to. But for some reason you did partially, unfortunately in a conflicting way. By application default the leading override is set to do nothing. It's a bit like driving a car with the handbrake on and wondering why it doesn't drive properly. "The car is poor designed, I need to check the handbrake before driving"? Quote macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wosven Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 1 hour ago, thomaso said: > I completely forgot that there was also a leading option in the character panel, since I don't use it and tend to disable this An according workflow for APub could be to 'disable' those options in the Character panel by keeping its section closed. I use the options in Positioning and Transform, notably Kerning, Tracking, Baseline, Sub/superscript and No break, the 2 last usually with character styles. That's only the Leading override that I don't use with characters or character styles, since from using QXD I think it's a paragraph characteristic, not a character one. I disable in ID the option that permit a single character to modify a whole paragraph leading if this character leading is higher, for example. 1 hour ago, KipV said: For me it is not so much the name that is confusing it's that the leading override box looks just like any other leading box. Sorry for the confusion about leading and baseline, I forget it was part of this panel. In doubt, you can always hover the cursor on the left of the input, and in a second you'll have the tool tip. An error that can be made on Windows, is scrolling on the value to have it increasing or decreasing. It's so usefull that I try it in many apps, without succes most of the time, alas. But for this you sould be sure to be above the right one, or you'll modify another value. Looking at the lockdown videos, I think I would have a hard time doing without if I used again a Mac and its simple mouse. It's really faster to do it with the scroll and modifier keys. I don't understand why Apple stick with this old rodent today. It's good we can use other mouses on Mac too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KipV Posted May 24, 2020 Author Share Posted May 24, 2020 Good iconography design is difficult to do. They need to show what something does through the use of the most basic imagery. This icon fails. It shows what leading does but not what it really does. Now that I know it's function that doesn't make up for poor icon design. I don't need knowledge of how to use tools with bad UI design. I need for it to be thought out correctly so that no one needs to why the symbol doesn't match the function at all. Like I stated yesterday other users in these forums are similarly perplexed at some of Publisher's set up who come compared to mature layout tools. I didn't expect it to have all of Quark's and InDesign's advanced tool set but it is reasonable to think I could breeze through what a design student would learn in the first day of a Typography 101 class. It has been clear I need to go back to layout tools that have decades long development because Publisher's single year on the market hasn't turned it into a serious competitor. Quote New Internet Book Project | Another New Website Project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KipV Posted May 24, 2020 Author Share Posted May 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Old Bruce said: Looking at the files you included showed me that the Designer file has all the items for the logo but if you Group them then the text will scale along with graphics. Yes, that is the way grouping would normally work. But due to the baseline grid being turned on it still messed with the text. I still don't know why it was turned on. I just transferred it over from an IMDL file this week that was created with InDesign many years ago. Maybe it was turned on through InDesign? I don't know. But yes I can now scale the logo by grouping it. Quote New Internet Book Project | Another New Website Project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorox Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 On 5/24/2020 at 4:15 AM, KipV said: It looks like other people are having the same confusion I am having. You're absolutely right! Although I've been using Publisher for quite some time now, I actually stumbled over the very same problem you've described: I had copied some lines of text from an old IDML-document (which I had opened in Publisher) and – while everything else proved to be easily editable – just couldn't find a way to change the leading... Seems like I, too, didn't remember that little "Leading Override“ setting which is (quite successfully, I'd say) hidden in the "Positioning and Transform" section of the "Character" palette... That being said I'm still not sure what "Leading Override" is supposed to mean or do differently than a Baseline shift on the Character level? Can someone possibly give an example (preferably a visual one) illuminating the difference, e.g. when I should use a simple Baseline shift (which we all know of for ages) and when a Leading Override (which I never encountered anywhere except in the Affinity apps)? KipV 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomaso Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 8 hours ago, Lorox said: when I should use a simple Baseline shift (which we all know of for ages) and when a Leading Override (which I never encountered anywhere except in the Affinity apps)? Baseline Shift requires a text selection + affects only the selected characters. Leading Override doesn't require a text selection to get assigned + affects the entire line where it was set. Means, to affect the leading of more than one line then Leading Override is easier to set and behaves more like leading as line spacing than Baseline Shift. Oufti 1 Quote macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorox Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 @thomaso Thanks a lot – that makes it clear. Although it seems to me the actual cases of use maybe somewhat rare for most users. Another question is: why did my copied lines of text from the IDML document have that Leading Override in the first place? As far as I remember, InDesign (CS5 that's where my IDML file was from) didn't have something like Leading Override which might have clung to the copied text as a formatting. Or did it, after all – without me ever noticing? I definitely hadn't specifically assigned Leading Overide myself after opening that IDML document. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomaso Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Lorox said: Another question is: why did my copied lines of text from the IDML document have that Leading Override in the first place? As far as I remember, InDesign (CS5 that's where my IDML file was from) didn't have something like Leading Override which might have clung to the copied text as a formatting. Or did it, after all – without me ever noticing? Can you upload an affected .idml? In ID leading is an interface item in the Character Panel – although it is a paragraph property. Perhaps it matters whether a text style was setup in ID as character or as paragraph style. I experienced ID designers who erroneously got used to create character styles only, never creating a paragraph style … until they run into consequences of this limiting way to work. Quote macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorox Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 3 hours ago, thomaso said: Can you upload an affected .idml? I'm attaching an IDML with a couple of lines. Checking here with Publisher 2 gave the results formerly described: there is some Leading Override assigned to all of the lines and it's basically unclear where it comes from as in ID just the regular leading had been applied. However, in ID this is – as you pointed out – indeed an item of the Character panel. Maybe that's the reason Publisher "thinks" this formatting item corresponds to its own leading/line-height related item in its own (Publisher) Character panel, which is actually "Leading Override"... If I remember correctly, ID always applies the highest value of leading (applied to one or more characters(!)) to the entire line this/these character(s) happen to be in. To me – come to think about it – this actually feels somewhat similar to Publisher's way of using "Leading Override". Anyway, it's not really a big deal with most jobs, I think. You just have to remember that in the Affinity apps there is this more or less "hidden" or "additional" control. Especially when you're coming from an ID background where it just didn't exist as such. some-lines-of-text-from-IDCS5.idml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeW Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 InDesign has a Preference setting that controls whether Leading applies to an entire paragraph or not. My Preference has this item turned off as a default: When I open your .idml, that preference setting is reset: With my setting, the only means to override leading is via a character attribute using either a character style or manually via changing type size and/or leading values and only affects a single line--unless an entire paragraph is selected when leading is changed and or edited and leading has been changed where the editing has happened and or text is pasted into a paragraph where leading has been changed. With your setting, leading is automatically adjusted but for entire paragraphs, even if only a single word is desired to have leading adjusted--unless the single character(s) or word(s) have the leading adjusted using a character style. There are likely other conditions that can affect leading, but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorox Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 23 minutes ago, MikeW said: There are likely other conditions that can affect leading, but... …it might get somewhat esoteric eventually, right? ID is just some legacy files for me, anyway. Experience shows I very rarely have the need to update them and keep them ID. Meanwhile I will open those old ID files in Publisher via IDML most of the time to really make the transition complete. So knowing where and how that "stubborn" leading settings CAN be changed after all in Publisher will suffice for the foreseeable future... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomaso Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Lorox said: However, in ID this is – as you pointed out – indeed an item of the Character panel. Maybe that's the reason Publisher "thinks" this formatting item corresponds to its own leading/line-height related item in its own (Publisher) Character panel, which is actually "Leading Override"... It appears to be more complex. Apart from @MikeW's preference hint (+ its change when opening your document, which indicates this preference isn't an application but a document preference, although it is in "preferences") ID needs and uses, like Affinity, a default text style that may influence other styles. It appears in your .idml not only the preference differs but also the default style (incl. leading) was overridden and thus it doesn't display in round brackets in both ID and APub. leading vs override.idml In the attached .idml are your two text frames where I created for the cyan and green line two paragraph styles. I currently don't remember where the default leading (of obviously 120 %) gets set in ID for the style "[Basic Paragraph]" – nor can't I currently explain why both custom p-styles open in APub with leading override "15" and none of them displays as "(15)", in ID, too, – although only one of the two is created to base on [Basic Paragraph] while the other on no style (which is not listed in my ID styles panel but it appears to be different from APub's "[No Style]" which rather corresponds with ID's "[Basic Paragraph]"). Below your text frames I added some text frames on the bottom layer "Ebene 1". These texts open in APub without a Leading Override and also they vary in sizes because they used in ID scaling options which don't exists in this way in APub (... we can't reset or define a scaled text frame to 100% in APub). So, there are quite a few spots to check when opening an .idml and its used style settings. Quote macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeW Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 One can edit an .idml prior to opening it in APub. An .idml file is a ZIP archive. Unzipped, there are several folders containing .xml files. In the folder named Resources, there is Preferences.xml, which contains the Preferences line it indicated in the screen shot: If that setting is changed from "true" to "false" the leading will not apply to entire paragraphs--only those that have manually been set. If one changes this setting using a text editor, one then needs to re-compress the entire folder/file structure back to a ZIP archive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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