The problem with the speed of the program

[Daniele Salvatore]

It doesn't matter what the size of the Affinity file is, as it's a vector document. And as it's a vector document you don't need it to be over 3 metres wide. It doesn't matter what the quality is on export, you're still trying to export a *massive* image.

When I used the millimetres in "document setup" I was not supposed that was going to affect su much the memory size; you should add a warning somewhere! Changing the export pixels to half the value the export time is now about 90 seconds and the PC is still running perfectly well.

What I shoul change in the "document setup" to scale down the memory requirement? I have tried to change from millimetre to metres, but nothin happen.

[anon1]

When I used the millimetres in "document setup" I was not supposed that was going to affect su much the memory size; you should add a warning somewhere! Changing the export pixels to half the value the export time is now about 90 seconds and the PC is still running perfectly well.

What I shoul change in the "document setup" to scale down the memory requirement? I have tried to change from millimetre to metres, but nothin happen.

Walking 3000m or 3km does not change how long it takes you to arrive, right?

Sams with graphics ;)

 

I think you need to read some article about "vector VS bitmap" and get a general understanding about that

[Daniele Salvatore]

I have a feeling it doesn't actually export the image. It looks like it's done it (instantly), but it shouldn't be instant, and you should see a progress bar. I think it's writing a corrupt image (we should definitely fix this).

The actual and more serious problem in such circumsatances is that the CPU will be temporarily corrupted; it is not enough to terminate AD by means of the Windows Task Manager, but the computer bust be restarted, otherwise the CPU keeps on running endless, despite that AD is already closed.

[Daniele Salvatore]

Walking 3000m or 3km does not change how long it takes you to arrive, right?

Sams with graphics ;)

 

I think you need to read some article about "vector VS bitmap" and get a general understanding about that

Beside whether it is better to walk for 3000 m or 3 km, I do not intend to become an expert in graphic system, but only to create a simple sketch; that's all.

I am only trying to understand how usful can be AD for me (it took me much less time to learn the use of Solid Edge).

[Herbert123]

It would be useful to know what the final image is going to be used for. The output intent is decided by that - for example, is it meant for the web? Or for a print (colour inkjet)? Or for press work?

 

Reducing that image to 18.000 pixels still means it results in a giant bitmap that will eat resources needlessly in most practical circumstances.

 

Based on your responses, I think your understanding of output intent and resolution is missing a couple of pieces. It would be helpful if you could tell us a little bit more about what you are trying to achieve. Then, and only then, can be provide you with suggestions for sensible output settings.

[Daniele Salvatore]

It would be useful to know what the final image is going to be used for. The output intent is decided by that - for example, is it meant for the web? Or for a print (colour inkjet)? Or for press work?

 

Reducing that image to 18.000 pixels still means it results in a giant bitmap that will eat resources needlessly in most practical circumstances.

 

Based on your responses, I think your understanding of output intent and resolution is missing a couple of pieces. It would be helpful if you could tell us a little bit more about what you are trying to achieve. Then, and only then, can be provide you with suggestions for sensible output settings.

 

I need only a simple JPG file with dimensions of no more than 4.000 KB.

[Daniele Salvatore]

I have a feeling it doesn't actually export the image. It looks like it's done it (instantly), but it shouldn't be instant, and you should see a progress bar. I think it's writing a corrupt image (we should definitely fix this).

Since I have reduced the pixel to less then 5000 to export the JPG files takes less than two seconds.

Unfortunatelly the problem is not yet solved.

Once the file has been saved the CPU keeps on running and the speed of the computer slows down even if I am not doing nothing.

I enclose a screen-shot showing what appears from Windows Task Manager; the hard disk is still running endless since more than one hour (even to write this short text has taken a lot of time; I completed only when AD was shut-down).

Normally the only way I have is either to terminate AD or, even better, to close everything (also rather difficult) and RESTART the computer.

[Mark Ingram]

This is because you have only changed the size of the export, your document is still huge. As such, when you load the export dialog, it tries to calculate the file size of your export, by writing the file to a temporary location. We do cancel the operation when the dialog closes, but it can still take some time to complete. The real solution here is to change the size of your document by going to Document Setup. If you want to export at a certain pixel resolution, change your setup to use pixels, and resize to your required size.

 

Edit: It looks like the temporary export (to calculate the file size) isn't cancelled, so I've logged this issue.

[Daniele Salvatore]

This is because you have only changed the size of the export, your document is still huge. As such, when you load the export dialog, it tries to calculate the file size of your export, by writing the file to a temporary location. We do cancel the operation when the dialog closes, but it can still take some time to complete. The real solution here is to change the size of your document by going to Document Setup. If you want to export at a certain pixel resolution, change your setup to use pixels, and resize to your required size.

 

Edit: It looks like the temporary export (to calculate the file size) isn't cancelled, so I've logged this issue.

 

Yes, I tried and now it works.

At this point I have a simple question: why AD does not provide warning messages to avoid such big mess? It cannot be assumed that all the users are so skilled.

[MattP]

If you didn't use Layer Effects in your vector document and exported to a vector format, the size and DPI would be of no consequence, hence everything would be instant so there is nothing to warn the user about...

 

The problem is simply because the document was created at an inappropriate size/DPI and pixel-based effects were used.

 

Is it reasonable to warn the user whenever they select a very high DPI or size that if they use certain effects then the experience will be slow? Or should it be the user's responsibility to understand what they're pressing and what it means? You can do the same in other software and it will also be slow and will not warn you why.

 

If I drive a car, it doesn't warn me that driving on pavements is dangerous, that animals may run out in front of me or anything else that I know in advance because I have studied how to drive and thought about the process before getting in and starting the engine... (I know that's by no means a great analogy, but you get the point I'm trying to make, I'm sure?)

 

Thanks in advance,

Matt

[Daniele Salvatore]

If you didn't use Layer Effects in your vector document and exported to a vector format, the size and DPI would be of no consequence, hence everything would be instant so there is nothing to warn the user about...

 

The problem is simply because the document was created at an inappropriate size/DPI and pixel-based effects were used.

 

Is it reasonable to warn the user whenever they select a very high DPI or size that if they use certain effects then the experience will be slow? Or should it be the user's responsibility to understand what they're pressing and what it means? You can do the same in other software and it will also be slow and will not warn you why.

 

If I drive a car, it doesn't warn me that driving on pavements is dangerous, that animals may run out in front of me or anything else that I know in advance because I have studied how to drive and thought about the process before getting in and starting the engine... (I know that's by no means a great analogy, but you get the point I'm trying to make, I'm sure?)

 

Thanks in advance,

Matt

I ma very sorry, but I disagree with you examples; AD is very complex too with a huge number of combinations that go in an incredible possibility of permutations.

It is impossible to have a complete overview; we are not supposed to go to a Top University before to use it. I have spent almost two months looking at all the available tutorials  and I still have difficulties to manage it.

 

About the first issue I have create that project-example by using only the "vector" and not the "pixel"; there was no reason to use it.

My opinion is that is a BUG; facts, the sudden opening of all the list of underneath menus appears only when I try to open one in the bottom list.

[verysame]

I ma very sorry, but I disagree with you examples; AD is very complex too with a huge number of combinations that go in an incredible possibility of permutations.

It is impossible to have a complete overview; we are not supposed to go to a Top University before to use it. I have spent almost two months looking at all the available tutorials  and I still have difficulties to manage it.

 

 

Hi Daniele,

 

I respect your point of view and I'm only adding my 2 c. here because the issue about simplicity vs complexity is a very interesting topic.

Yes, UI needs to be clear enough to let the user move his own steps and in fact, it seems to me that you didn't face any particular problem in order to create the vector file. The problem showed up when you needed to export the file.

Now, as others have already mentioned, one needs to know what the file is going to be used for and handling dpi, format, units and so forth is not something you can expect the software to take care for you.

One thing is having fun with the creative part of the software, another thing is getting technical because of the technical needs.

 

For instance, I was having headaches with the colors of my images being inconsistent, even on my same computer between applications.

I've had to read about color calibration, color profiles (even file format can make a difference). Now I have a little better understanding of what's going on under the hood. Or for example, when I create an animation in After Effects I need to know frame rate, safe area, output, and so on so forth.

 

The idea that everything has to be simple and we need to get a feedback from the applications we use, is actually wrong when it comes to a professional environment. Why? Because if the applications would do the job for you, you wouldn't bother investigating further the issue, and your professional level would be the same as any other average user.

 

Best,

Andrew

[Daniele Salvatore]

Hi Daniele,

 

I respect your point of view and I'm only adding my 2 c. here because the issue about simplicity vs complexity is a very interesting topic.

Yes, UI needs to be clear enough to let the user move his own steps and in fact, it seems to me that you didn't face any particular problem in order to create the vector file. The problem showed up when you needed to export the file.

Now, as others have already mentioned, one needs to know what the file is going to be used for and handling dpi, format, units and so forth is not something you can expect the software to take care for you.

One thing is having fun with the creative part of the software, another thing is getting technical because of the technical needs.

 

For instance, I was having headaches with the colors of my images being inconsistent, even on my same computer between applications.

I've had to read about color calibration, color profiles (even file format can make a difference). Now I have a little better understanding of what's going on under the hood. Or for example, when I create an animation in After Effects I need to know frame rate, safe area, output, and so on so forth.

 

The idea that everything has to be simple and we need to get a feedback from the applications we use, is actually wrong when it comes to a professional environment. Why? Because if the applications would do the job for you, you wouldn't bother investigating further the issue, and your professional level would be the same as any other average user.

 

Best,

Andrew

 

Thank you for the long answer; I perfectly agree on the fact that AD provides a lot of combinations that users are supposed to know, but some should be clear since the beginning.

Anyone needs to save the file that he has created; it should be obvious that the default values are suitable to proceed; unfortunatelly it is not like that; I have spent over 10 days to understand what should have been clear since the beginning.

[MattP]

Thank you for the long answer; I perfectly agree on the fact that AD provides a lot of combinations that users are supposed to know, but some should be clear since the beginning.

Anyone needs to save the file that he has created; it should be obvious that the default values are suitable to proceed; unfortunatelly it is not like that; I have spent over 10 days to understand what should have been clear since the beginning.

 

But as you have said yourself, saving the file (i.e. pressing Save in our native file format) takes less than a second. Exporting the file (i.e. explicitly generating a non-native result) is the bit that's slow. Export is based on what you intended to achieve with the program and in this case you have told the program to generate a vast amount of data, so it takes a while.

 

This is true in any other vector software - and none of the other software will warn you about your document setup at the time when you create the document because it's not a problem until you do something that you may not intend to do, so why warn the user.

 

If I had a piece of software that continually told me "Are you sure? This could generate lots of data if you use some raster effects and then export it" then I simply wouldn't use it as it would be far too nannying... I hope I'm not coming across in the wrong way, I'm simply trying to explain why our software (and none of its competitors) would warn a user about something which is completely valid to do, just because they may do something that would cause it to export slowly if they used certain features in certain ways... If I was making a document of huge proportions and high DPI, I would be very aware that I needed to export as a vector and avoid layer effects or anything else which would cause rasterisation - if I did this, the export would be instant... I know this because I have researched the subject area and created the document this large for a specific purpose.

 

Thanks again,

Matt

[Daniele Salvatore]

But as you have said yourself, saving the file (i.e. pressing Save in our native file format) takes less than a second. Exporting the file (i.e. explicitly generating a non-native result) is the bit that's slow. Export is based on what you intended to achieve with the program and in this case you have told the program to generate a vast amount of data, so it takes a while.

 

This is true in any other vector software - and none of the other software will warn you about your document setup at the time when you create the document because it's not a problem until you do something that you may not intend to do, so why warn the user.

 

If I had a piece of software that continually told me "Are you sure? This could generate lots of data if you use some raster effects and then export it" then I simply wouldn't use it as it would be far too nannying... I hope I'm not coming across in the wrong way, I'm simply trying to explain why our software (and none of its competitors) would warn a user about something which is completely valid to do, just because they may do something that would cause it to export slowly if they used certain features in certain ways... If I was making a document of huge proportions and high DPI, I would be very aware that I needed to export as a vector and avoid layer effects or anything else which would cause rasterisation - if I did this, the export would be instant... I know this because I have researched the subject area and created the document this large for a specific purpose.

 

Thanks again,

Matt

I attach 2 screen-shots showing the document set-up and the moment before the export, without yet  reducing the volume of pixels (that now I divide by 12); in such conditions if by mistake I click on save, it become a bomb trigger: it will be worse than a PC virus.

I am still convince that AD developpers should look at this issue to avoid all the problems I got; they cannot assume that all the usera are at such high level of knowledge.

[Mark Ingram]

We have looked at the problem, and determined that there is no problem. You asked to export an image 74,000 pixels wide, with a host of complicated layer effects, all at 300 DPI. It will take some time, as has been explained.

 

Affinity Designer is a professional application, most professionals will not make this mistake, therefore we won't need to add any warnings saying "Are you sure you meant to create a large document?".

[Daniele Salvatore]

I have started the use of AD incidentally, I was actually looking for a Photo Retouching; since your Affinity Photo was not yet ready I starded by mistake and curiosity looking at AD that I found much more interesting that I was expecting. Now I am very fond of it and I would raccomand to everybody.

Yes, I am not a Professional Designer; I noticed that mostly of the people of this forum comes from previous experiences with other high level softwares. They speak a language that often for me is incomprehensible (I am a normal Technical Engineer with familiarity on CAD 3D). 

My opinion is that you should pay more attention to a huge potential users that usually are afraid to approach programs such as Photoshop, not just because of the cost, but mainly due to the fact taht they are afraid of the difficulties to use them.

Before AD I tried only GIMP that I did not like because looks easy, but it is actually too complex; maybe my statement looks strange, but it is easier to learn how to use Affinity Designer.

A minimum additional struggle will allow many people to have the great chance to use your very appealing software that allows even naive people, like I am, to use and appreciate it; you are much closer thatn maybe you feel.

The rule is very simple: do not only look at people that are already expert, as the market is incredibly massive with the new potential users.

Definitely I will buy either AD and AP, when available.

In any case I congratulate for the great efforts you are facing.

[verysame]

Hi Daniele,

 

It's nice to have this conversation with you.

Two things struck my attention.

 

First: you are a technical engineer who works with 3d cad applications. I guess you might be familiar with something like Autocad or Solidworks, or similar.

I do 3d for motion graphics, not the same thing but bear with me for a moment.

In 3ds Max, users can set up a different type of units, as 3ds Max can render a quite accurate representation of actual models (a house, a furniture, and so on). Now, if the user doesn't take the units into account, as you can easily imagine the result will be a disaster. That said, 3ds Max doesn't know that the user is building, say, a chair, so the units are not its business ;)

The thing is, if the units are wrong, the resulting chair might be good for a giant or for a bug, but not for a human.

In other words, as I'm sure you've had to learn the technicalities of Cad, same is required for any other professional applications, not only AD.

You could argue that you don't need to output a real chair from AD, and in fact, you wouldn't have had any issues if your work would have stopped at the creation process within AD. But the very moment you export something, you are basically doing a render, which means, you are using a professional application with a concrete purpose. And same as with Cad or 3ds Max, you the user only know what the purpose is, hence you need to have the knowledge in order to proper prepare your renders.

 

Second: I can understand why Gimp didn't click. Is not that is just complicated it is also a matter of consistency (someone would say "patterns"). A user interface is a serious business.

When you do some type of operation, say, using a keystroke combination, you would expect to use the same paradigm in a similar context. Very basic example: if I press B in order to use the Brush tool in AD Draw Persona, I would expect the same shortcut when I want to use the brush tool in Pixel Persona (and in fact, that's exactly how it works).

Now, creating a unified, coherent environment is one thing, providing feedback to an entire workflow (what are you exporting for?) it's a different thing.

The potential users you are talking about, they probably don't need to print a poster for a commercial campaign, and I think they can still enjoy AD. But if they do need to move to the next step, and do a professional job, well there are no shortcuts, they need to learn.

 

We saw this happening in the smartphone industry. People expect constant feedback from their phones. The more you try to dimish the level of interaction required, the less you get in terms of operability. And in fact, there are several restrictions regarding what you can do with a phone (and thus people rooting or jailbreaking). In the end, with a phone you can do only that much, hence the plethora of apps created to do specific tasks.

 

Best,

Andrew

[Daniele Salvatore]

Hi Daniele,

 

It's nice to have this conversation with you.

Two things struck my attention.

 

First: you are a technical engineer who works with 3d cad applications. I guess you might be familiar with something like Autocad or Solidworks, or similar.

I do 3d for motion graphics, not the same thing but bear with me for a moment.

In 3ds Max, users can set up a different type of units, as 3ds Max can render a quite accurate representation of actual models (a house, a furniture, and so on). Now, if the user doesn't take the units into account, as you can easily imagine the result will be a disaster. That said, 3ds Max doesn't know that the user is building, say, a chair, so the units are not its business ;)

The thing is, if the units are wrong, the resulting chair might be good for a giant or for a bug, but not for a human.

In other words, as I'm sure you've had to learn the technicalities of Cad, same is required for any other professional applications, not only AD.

You could argue that you don't need to output a real chair from AD, and in fact, you wouldn't have had any issues if your work would have stopped at the creation process within AD. But the very moment you export something, you are basically doing a render, which means, you are using a professional application with a concrete purpose. And same as with Cad or 3ds Max, you the user only know what the purpose is, hence you need to have the knowledge in order to proper prepare your renders.

 

Second: I can understand why Gimp didn't click. Is not that is just complicated it is also a matter of consistency (someone would say "patterns"). A user interface is a serious business.

When you do some type of operation, say, using a keystroke combination, you would expect to use the same paradigm in a similar context. Very basic example: if I press B in order to use the Brush tool in AD Draw Persona, I would expect the same shortcut when I want to use the brush tool in Pixel Persona (and in fact, that's exactly how it works).

Now, creating a unified, coherent environment is one thing, providing feedback to an entire workflow (what are you exporting for?) it's a different thing.

The potential users you are talking about, they probably don't need to print a poster for a commercial campaign, and I think they can still enjoy AD. But if they do need to move to the next step, and do a professional job, well there are no shortcuts, they need to learn.

 

We saw this happening in the smartphone industry. People expect constant feedback from their phones. The more you try to dimish the level of interaction required, the less you get in terms of operability. And in fact, there are several restrictions regarding what you can do with a phone (and thus people rooting or jailbreaking). In the end, with a phone you can do only that much, hence the plethora of apps created to do specific tasks.

 

Best,

Andrew

 

Thank you for your long and deep consideration.

My point was aimed to highlight a simple matter: AD is a wonderful system and I would not change almost anything, but is explained for the professional users, already expert.

 

As a Mechanical & Electrical Engineer I have come since a long time to an obvious discover: PEOPLE NEVER SPEND TIME TO READ THE MANUALS (any of them).

The reason is rather simple: the manuals are prepared by who always knows the products; therefore they never explain in the way that others will understand what they try to explain; too easily they jump matters considered superfluous, forgetting the most obvious steps for unskilled people.

 

Ciao

Daniele

[Shalom3]

Hallo, very interesting discussion ;) . Let me come back to the original problem. I already know why my computer everything was so slow. I looked up into processes. I see the process svchost takes 50% CPU performance!!! On the computer was not running any program at the time. Under process svchost is running Windows Update service and that was the problem. After turning off the service is processor performance (at standstill) to approximately 5%. Affinity is after this operation very fast.

[Daniele Salvatore]

Hallo, very interesting discussion ;) . Let me come back to the original problem. I already know why my computer everything was so slow. I looked up into processes. I see the process svchost takes 50% CPU performance!!! On the computer was not running any program at the time. Under process svchost is running Windows Update service and that was the problem. After turning off the service is processor performance (at standstill) to approximately 5%. Affinity is after this operation very fast.

 

My computer is very fast, but I started to get big problems always when I was trying to save my first trial excercises either in PNG or JPEG.

It has taken some time to realize that was due to the fact that the file size (either PNG or JPEG) was too big and was corrupting the CPU, even when AD was terminated by using Windows Task Manager.

Now I have learned to reduce the size of pixel value before to save the file.

My computer is very fast, but I started to get big problems always when I was trying to save my first trial excercise either in PNG or JPEG.

It has taken some time to realize that was due to the fact that the file size (either PNG or JPEG) was too big and was corrupting the CPU, even when AD was terminated by using Windows Task Manager.

Now I have learned to reduce the size of pixel value before to save the file.

[Daniele Salvatore]

Hallo, very interesting discussion ;) . Let me come back to the original problem. I already know why my computer everything was so slow. I looked up into processes. I see the process svchost takes 50% CPU performance!!! On the computer was not running any program at the time. Under process svchost is running Windows Update service and that was the problem. After turning off the service is processor performance (at standstill) to approximately 5%. Affinity is after this operation very fast.

 

The problems I got with my different as it has been always very fast, but I started to get big problems always when I was trying to save my first trial excercises either in PNG or JPEG.

 

Now I have learned to reduce the size of pixel value before to save the file and the speed is now always fast as before.

My computer is very fast, but I started to get big problems always when I was trying to save my first trial excercises either in PNG or JPEG.

It has taken some time to realize that was due to the fact that the file size (either PNG or JPEG) was too big and was corrupting the CPU, even when AD was terminated by using Windows Task Manager.

Now I have learned to reduce the size of pixel value before to save the file.