changing scanned b/w documents to pure b/w

R C-R · February 19

2 hours ago, thomaso said:

The profile names and results let me assume rather gimmicks or experiments than serious, useful profiles.

Did you read the Apple reference I posted a link to earlier about using ColorSync Utility to modify existing or create your own Quartz Filters? I don't think I would have a use for that but I'm fairly sure some users would find at least the Sepia one useful when used when exporting images to PDF's with Preview app.

NotMyFault · February 19

5 hours ago, R C-R said:

Then why does your screenshot have an Adobe Systems copyright instead of the "Copyright 2007 Apple Inc., all rights reserved" one that ColorSync Utility shows for the Apple one; or shows it as part of the XYZ Profile Connection Space (PCS) when the Apple one shows it as in the Lab PCS?

Also, what is its file size? The Apple one is 26KB.

I can't be sure but I think they must not be the same profile.

Because Apple, Adobe, Microsoft are the founding members of ICC, and you will find otherwise identical profiles with multiple names and copyright information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Color_Consortium

The eight founding members of the ICC were Adobe, Agfa, Apple, Kodak, Microsoft, Silicon Graphics, Sun Microsystems, and Taligent. Sun Microsystems, Silicon Graphics, and Taligent have since left the organization.

As of September 2022 there are 5 founding members, 37 regular members and 18 honorary members. Most members specialize in photography, printing, or Electronic visual displays. Regular members include: BenQ,Canon, Dolby, Fuji, Heidelberg Printing Machines AG, Hewlett–Packard, Konica Minolta, Kyocera, Nikon,Seiko, Sun Chemical, Toshiba, vivo, Xerox, Xiaomi, and X-Rite.^[2]

lacerto · February 19

10 hours ago, R C-R said:

I can't be sure but I think they must not be the same profile.

They are not. The one I referred to is "Output Device Profile", while the Apple one that comes with the OS, is "Abstract Profile".

The latter are primarily useful in context of Softproof and miscellaneous image manipulations, and in RGB color space (more specifically in Lab color mode). They can be potentially pretty useful in tasks like in this thread, abstracting black and white content from a color image (e.g., below, a pretty good conversion can be achieved just by applying the Softproof adjustment and then increasing the Gamma):

The Apple Black & White profile becomes also available in context of definition of color profile when creating a document in Lab color mode, or when converting to Lab. Interestingly, when embedding this profile and viewing it in XnView MP, the displayed information shows that the profile creator is actually the same as that of the Output version: Little CMS.

It seems that I cannot use the Apple-specific abstract profile in Photoshop, at all -- it may of course be just a name conflict (as both profiles have an identical name even if different filenames). Both profiles, however, can be equally useful in the kinds of tasks presented in this thread.

R C-R · February 19

7 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

Because Apple, Adobe, Microsoft are the founding members of ICC, and you will find otherwise identical profiles with multiple names and copyright information.

But that does not seem to explain either why the copyright info is different or as @lacerto mentioned one is an Output Device Profile & the other is an "Abstract Profile," or why PS cannot use the Apple one.

5 hours ago, lacerto said:

The Apple Black & White profile becomes also available in context of definition of color profile when creating a document in Lab color mode, or when converting to Lab.

It does not become available for me on my Mac when using the Lab color space or anywhere else I can find in any Affinity app, just like with the other 'abstract' ones. It is only available for me when exporting PDF's from Preview.app or when using ColorSync Utility, like in the articles I linked to.

I guess I must be doing something wrong, but I have no idea what it might be.

thomaso · February 19

8 minutes ago, R C-R said:

It is only available for me when exporting PDF's from Preview.app

If you open the attached PDF in Affinity it should open with the B&W profile as document profile (<- PDF/X-4, output intent). Once it is opened you might see the profile in the document's colour profile list and also be able to create a new Affinity document with this profile. b&w profile X4 conv.pdf

Just curious: Why are you so eager to enable this profile as a document profile... after several posts have already mentioned its doubtful or very limited usefulness?

lacerto · February 19

2 hours ago, R C-R said:

I guess I must be doing something wrong, but I have no idea what it might be.

It is probably that the profile is not available to your Photo app. Try to make it available by using File > Import ICC Profile command of Photo. I am not sure if the location the ICC profiles are placed differs depending on whether the app is from Affinity or Apple Store, but I have Affinity store versions, and then the profiles will at least be available at:

/Users/<user>/Library/Application Support/Affinity Photo 2/profiles

....and for other Affinity apps, equivalent app and version specific paths.

I renamed the two Black & White profiles as Black & White Gray and Black & White Lab using Color Sync Utility App, and can now use both Lab and Grayscale based profiles independently, so not having both accessible previously was just a name conflict. As for Adobe Photoshop, abstract profiles are available in context of profile conversions as a separate list, and all installed abstract profiles (like Blue Tone, Gray Tone and Sepia Tone) appear to be automatically available (as for Affinity apps, I think that at least Affinity Store versions need to have these profiles copied under the user Library, as described above). On Windows all these profiles are installed in one common place which makes their use much easier (but naming conflict can make e.g. Proof Setup inaccessible).

The concept of abstract profiles was new to me so I am not sure how they are typically used. The Lab based Black & White profile would appear to be useful also as a Softproof Adjustment to get a reasonably realistic preview of monochrome output, and when making an actual conversion, the result will be pure black and white image (even if of course not a true monochrome within Affinity ecosystem). But I am not sure if this is "intended" or "typical" use since Photoshop does not allow using abstract profiles in context of Proof Setup.

Anyway: this was one step forward in understanding different kinds of ICC profiles and how they are supported and accessible in different apps, and realising that naming conflicts can become an obstruction but be easily resolved with Apple Color Sync Utility was useful.

R C-R · February 19

2 hours ago, thomaso said:

If you open the attached PDF in Affinity it should open with the B&W profile as document profile (<- PDF/X-4, output intent). Once it is opened you might see the profile in the document's colour profile list and also be able to create a new Affinity document with this profile.

OK, that works but it seems very convoluted because until I opened your file the B&W profile was nowhere to be found.

2 hours ago, thomaso said:

Just curious: Why are you so eager to enable this profile as a document profile... after several posts have already mentioned its doubtful or very limited usefulness?

I am not particularly interested in enabling or using this profile. I just was & still am curious about why it is ever available in Affinity, particularly as a Grey/8 or Grey/16 profile once I tried your example file ... which BTW only works for creating a new document with that profile until I quit Affinity. So if I do not already have a PDF with that profile once again it is not available.

Not exactly a bug but since Affinity does not support true 1 bit B&W files it seems like something that should not ever be a choice.

Old Bruce · February 19

I do believe we may be discussing 1 bit files. Affinity does not support them.

R C-R · February 19

12 minutes ago, lacerto said:

Try to make it available by using File > Import ICC Profile command of Photo.

Maybe others will find your approach of some use & thanks for the info & video but I think I will leave things as they are for now.

R C-R · February 19

1 minute ago, Old Bruce said:

I do believe we may be discussing 1 bit files. Affinity does not support them.

I think there is a bit more to it than that since as has just been demonstrated by @lacerto the B&W profile may be useful to some as a soft proof adjustment, I suppose when printing to a B&W printer.

lacerto · February 19

Here is a demo of usage of abstract profiles installed on macOS (Sonoma) with Affinity Photo and how they can be previewed in context of Softproof Adjustment (they can also be used for direct conversion, but would be more useful as adjustments so that they can be tuned before flattened and rasterized):

R C-R · February 19

12 minutes ago, lacerto said:

Here is a demo of usage of abstract profiles...

Did you copy all of them to your /Users/<user>/Library/Application Support/Affinity Photo 2/profiles, as you did for the B&W one? Was the source of the originals /Library/ColorSync/Profiles or something else?

Edit: forgot to add, since only AP has a File > Import ICC Profile command, for the one(s) you added to AD 2 and/or APub 2 how specifically did you do that?

lacerto · February 19

6 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Did you copy all of them to your /Users/<user>/Library/Application Support/Affinity Photo 2/profiles, as you did for the B&W one? Was the source of the originals /Library/ColorSync/Profiles or something else?

Yes, exactly like this.

R C-R · February 19

10 minutes ago, lacerto said:

Yes, exactly like this.

Huh. I got a bit adventurous & since I had an Apple WebSafeColors.icc profile in /Library/ColorSync/Profiles/ I tried adding that the AP 2 via the File > Import ICC Profile command which appeared to work ... but caused an immediate crash when I tried to use it in an AP document. So I do not recommend trying to add that particular one!

v_kyr · February 19

2 hours ago, lacerto said:

The concept of abstract profiles was new to me so I am not sure how they are typically used.

The color.org and some other websites do give some explanations here.

Quote

Q. What is an abstract profile?

A. Abstract profiles allow you to perform custom image effects, such as applying a particular 'look' to a series of images. Such a profile allows you to define CIELAB (or CIEXYZ) values as both input and output. Thus you can algorithmically define colour changes of whatever type you like and produce the LUT that achieves that. A small number of colour management applications support the creation and or use of abstract profiles.

For full details of the structure, required tags and processing model, see the ICC profile specification .

lacerto · February 19

1 hour ago, R C-R said:

Edit: forgot to add, since only AP has a File > Import ICC Profile command, for the one(s) you added to AD 2 and/or APub 2 how specifically did you do that?

They are just symmetrically in

/Users/<user>/Library/Application Support/Affinity Publisher 2/profiles
/Users/<user>/Library/Application Support/Affinity Designer 2/profiles

I suppose version 1 profiles are just in equivalent folders but probably without a version number in folder name.

Versions purchased from Apple Store might have profiles in different locations, or might be able to read from general system locations?

R C-R · February 19

14 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

A small number of colour management applications support the creation and or use of abstract profiles.

I suppose it would be useful if Affinity supported these profiles without having to add them to user level support support folders. Otherwise, I doubt many users would have figured out that workaround....

v_kyr · February 19

58 minutes ago, R C-R said:

I suppose it would be useful if Affinity supported these profiles without having to add them to user level support ~~support~~ folders. Otherwise, I doubt many users would have figured out that workaround....

On the other side it's more secure to have abstract profiles only on a user level than system wide.

R C-R · February 19

22 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

On the other side it's more secure to have abstract profiles only on a user level than system wide.

Why? Is there some known way for someone to hack them to cause security problems? What about other apps like Apple's Preview.app that support them without having to add them at the user level? Do they somehow also pose potential security issues?

v_kyr · February 19

1 minute ago, R C-R said:

Why? Is there some known way for someone to hack them to cause security problems? What about other apps like Apple's Preview.app that support them without having to add them at the user level? Do they somehow also pose potential security issues?

Secure is meant here in the sense of in order to have a better overview and separate areas, i.e. in terms of possible naming mismatch conflicts etc.

thomaso · February 19

On 2/19/2024 at 8:30 PM, R C-R said:

Otherwise, I doubt many users would have figured out that workaround....

Is it indeed the use of these particular profiles? As far I see their visual results can also get achieved with adjustment or filter layers, most of them quite simple and with more flexibility regarding the desired colour.

If you crave more preset color options, there is also the wide range of “LUT” … not to mention “OCIO” with more room to figure out a 1-click workflow for further color options.

Quote

Affinity Publisher also implements OpenColorIO; a colour management system that provides a full colour-managed workflow. (…) By default, Publisher's OpenColorIO features are not immediately usable. An .ocio configuration file is required alongside a number of supporting files such as lookup tables. (…) The OpenColorIO website (http://www.opencolorio.org) contains some sample configurations that provide a number of suitable input and output profiles, including several Academy Colour (ACES) configurations.

https://affinity.help/publisher/English.lproj/index.html?page=pages/Clr/ocio.html&title=Using OpenColorIO

lacerto · February 20

7 hours ago, R C-R said:

All I was suggesting is that some users might find them useful if the Affinity apps supported them automatically, without having to add them piecemeal to their respective user app support folders.

I agree. I did not know about abstract profiles earlier, and while it is true that there are far more well-known and more effective and especially shareable methods of achieving similar results, it does not harm to stay curious and learn something "new" -- in quotation marks because it seems that abstract ICCs are not anything new. Based on the fact that many if not all the abstract ICC samples distributed on macOS seem to be created by the same company doing business in the field of abstract ICCs, Little CMS, and that these profiles appear to have been created already in early 2000s, and that Photoshop appears to have supported abstract ICCs starting already from CS4, the technology has been there now for well over two decades.

I had not noticed existence of this feature because it is kind of "hidden" as a separate list in Photoshop, and probably very few have noticed its availability in context of Affinity apps because of poor accessibility of these profiles. But I think that they might have some use especially in context of non-destructive soft proof kind of UI with endless capability of combining whatever is primarily achieved with an abstract ICC with other, still more "experimental" adjustments. Personally I think it is good that Adobe implemented this feature separately from other kinds of ICCs (where results are exact and based on ISO standards), and also separately from color proofing, where reasonably predictable results can be achieved with specific manufacturer and production profiles even if adjustments are applied manually and based on perception.

The whole concept of having color profiles in context of Lab color mode (a "profileless" color space), is a bit confusing, so in this sense having these profiles listed amongst Soft Proof adjustment is likely to blur the underlying technology (and whatever is achieved by using accurate Lab to Lab calculations), and make the whole feature a kind of a hobbyist widget. But then again, has not the feature now reached a proper home having been exposed in the realm of Affinity apps 🙂

2 hours ago, R C-R said:

It's only a suggestion based in part on what @lacerto mentioned about their potential uses.

...which was of course basically just a hunch, and as mentioned above, I am not personally into this kind of approach, either. But it might offer some basic means of achieving kinds of goals initially asked by OP and not entirely off topic. One often learns new things by trial and error, and taking a few side steps. My initial interest in the topic arose because of @David in Яuislip's post, however apparently "Luddite" but nevertheless based on experience and understanding of underlying (analogue) technology, and getting excellent results effectively and elegantly, rather than as a result of "experimenting" with multiple adjustments and controls. So in that sense, looking into something possibly simple, achievable e.g. with a self-made absolute ICC profile with a tool costing EUR 3,95, seemed worth an effort:

thomaso · February 20

On 2/17/2024 at 8:44 PM, David in Яuislip said:

I check the channels on scans and choose the one with best contrast, in this case the red
Then create a greyscale layer and apply a curve adjustment

@grunnvms, if you're planning additional scans and prefer grayscale as final result: David's note reminds me of a corresponding option in the scanner software that may produce 'optimized' scan results.

v_kyr · February 20

5 hours ago, lacerto said:

... So in that sense, looking into something possibly simple, achievable e.g. with a self-made absolute ICC profile with a tool costing EUR 3,95, seemed worth an effort:

15 hours ago, v_kyr said:

ICC Frequently asked questions

http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/Abstract_Profile

https://www.johnpaulcaponigro.com/blog/17781/using-color-management-color-adjustment-synthetic-profiles/

https://littlecms.com/abstractor/ <--*

https://www.argyllcms.com/doc/ColorManagement.html

lacerto · February 20

1 hour ago, v_kyr said:

16 hours ago, v_kyr said:

ICC Frequently asked questions

http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/Abstract_Profile

https://www.johnpaulcaponigro.com/blog/17781/using-color-management-color-adjustment-synthetic-profiles/

https://littlecms.com/abstractor/ <--*

https://www.argyllcms.com/doc/ColorManagement.html

Little CMS was already mentioned earlier in one of my posts as the creator of Apple abstract ICCs, with the link to their web site, so i am not sure why there was need to notify me of the address being included also in your list of addresses? I wanted to pinpoint them just to give something concrete, and demonstrate how simple creation of abstract ICCs is 🙂

changing scanned b/w documents to pure b/w

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