Including spot colours in Designer pdf output..how?

[homeyJay]

I've declared a couple of spot colours in a document - they appear in the document pallet but when I export the document as a pdf and examine it in Acrobat (print production --> output preview), no spot colours are listed.

I've obviously chosen "honour spot colours" in the export dialog.

What do I have to do to get this working?

[joe_l]

9 minutes ago, homeyJay said:

What do I have to do to get this working?

Are they really spot? Spot colours have a little circle in bottom right area. Do you have sample document you could upload here?

[thomaso]

Just in case: Spot colours get exported as separate ink channels in a PDF only if they are assigned to visible objects. Just defining spot swatches in a document swatches palette doesn't make them appear as PDF ink channels.

[homeyJay]

Ok, thanks. I'm slowly working through this. It looks like when I declared a spot colour and then had to subsequently edit that colour (by right clicking the spot col on the panel) it stops being a spot colour. Im not sure why this is but the little spot vanishes after changing the spot colour. I just assumes once the spot col was declared, it would stay that way. Have I missed something?

[thomaso]

22 minutes ago, homeyJay said:

when I declared a spot colour and then had to subsequently edit that colour (by right clicking the spot col on the panel) it stops being a spot colour. Im not sure why this is but the little spot vanishes after changing the spot colour.

It does not happen to me in V1. But it is known that the current slider mode (e.g. RGB, CMYK) may unintentionally change the initial swatches colour space. Also, the UI seems to lack in an option for PANTONE swatches to edit them by choosing another PANTONE number. However, to me in any case the global / spot / overprint properties are maintained if I alter the colour values only.

Can you show a screencast that demonstrates this issue of turning a spot swatch into a non-spot swatch by editing it via right-click?

[homeyJay]

I'm not sure how to do a screen cast but if anyone out there with V2 on a Mac wants to have a go at this (looking at you Affinity support) knock yourselves out!

[thomaso]

17 minutes ago, homeyJay said:

I'm not sure how to do a screen cast

On mac pressing Shift-Cmd-5 opens the screenshot tool … https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208721

Unfortunately it creates a video with unnecessary large file size and of container file type .mov which might not display directly within a forum post but require download first for other forum members, so it is useful to convert the video to another file type like .mp4 or .m4v before upload.

[Oufti]

3 hours ago, thomaso said:

so it is useful to convert the video to another file type like .mp4 or .m4v before upload.

I've found that VLC did it easily for a very unexperimented person in video manipulation.

File > Convert > Personal profile: MP4 / H264 / (no audio or MP3). 

Perhaps are there better ways?

[lepr]

25 minutes ago, Oufti said:

I've found that VLC did it easily for a very unexperimented person in video manipulation.

File > Convert > Personal profile: MP4 / H264 / (no audio or MP3). 

Yes, I do exactly the same. The reduction in file size is tremendous, in addition to the improved compatibility with browsers.

[thomaso]

2 hours ago, Oufti said:

I've found that VLC did it easily

I use this conversion as kind of "by default", too. I get rid of a few steps with a file of type ".workflow" as a shortcut and menu entry, created with the macOS "Automator.app" that opens VLC, switches to its Converter, selects the wanted preset and leads me to my screenshots folder where I just select my most recent file and press "Save".

https://support.apple.com/guide/automator/welcome/mac

 

[Oufti]

1 hour ago, thomaso said:

[…] a file of type ".workflow" […], created with the macOS "Automator.app" that opens VLC, switches to its Converter, selects the wanted preset and leads me to my screenshots folder where I just select my most recent file and press "Save".

Thank you for detailing the main actions implied.

I use a similar workflow for reducing size of Retina screenshots. Unfortunately, I couldn't achieve the same result for videos. It seems that automating VLC requires Apple Script? 

[thomaso]

45 minutes ago, Oufti said:

I use a similar workflow for reducing size of Retina screenshots. Unfortunately, I couldn't achieve the same result for videos. It seems that automating VLC requires Apple Script? 

For retina screenshots I use just ImageOptim (without downscaling). What do you mean with "requires AppleScript"? I assume the automator.app uses AppleScript while it's installed in every macOS, doesn't it? Maybe my attached .workflow file helps to investigate its various steps, though it might fail to run for you regarding my custom VLC preset + my custom screenshots folder (which I have as favourite item in the sidebar and just clicked it when recording the .workflow). (I guess the automator doesn't read 'names' but rather has pixel coordinates in mind, e.g. for menu entries)  VLC - Konv. ohne Ton.workflow.zip

[Oufti]

8 minutes ago, thomaso said:

What do you mean with "requires AppleScript"?

VLC has a limited set of commands like "move menu focus down", "activate menu item", etc. defined in its Apple Script dictionary. I thought may be you were using them in an Automator "Execute an Apple Script script" action… 

 

14 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Maybe my attached .workflow file helps to investigate its various steps

This is perfect! Thank you very much. 

You did what I tried to, this gave me hope to succeed! 😄

To make a short story long… 

By myself, after investigating and renouncing the Apple Script path, I had combined the same two actions (Launch VLC & Observe my actions) but I was stuck with the latter…

I encountered a message asking to authorize that application (which one is indicated by the icon above) to "rule this computer" (the message is not very clear at least but with the help of your file, showing me I was on the good path, I found eventually it was in Accessibility's panel of the Security & Confidentiality system preferences). 

 I will try later to record actions performed in VLC as you did but arranged a little bit to my taste.

For information, your VLC actions are described in German, but run perfectly well on my French Mac. 

 

Once again, thank you for yourhelp.  

 

[thomaso]

25 minutes ago, Oufti said:

VLC has a limited set of commands like "move menu focus down", "activate menu item", etc. defined in its Apple Script dictionary.

Ah, I see. But I recorded my visual mouse actions only and did not script with the available dictionary of VLC.

You probably need to add the Automator.app to this list in macOS system preferences:

Back to the topic: Are you able to reproduce in V2 this edit spot colour issue of the OP:

10 hours ago, homeyJay said:

It looks like when I declared a spot colour and then had to subsequently edit that colour (by right clicking the spot col on the panel) it stops being a spot colour.

[Oufti]

2 hours ago, thomaso said:

Back to the topic: Are you able to reproduce in V2 this edit spot colour issue of the OP:

12 hours ago, homeyJay said:

It looks like when I declared a spot colour and then had to subsequently edit that colour (by right clicking the spot col on the panel) it stops being a spot colour.

I'm sorry, I was following this topic mostly to learn about spot color management in Aff softwares, as it was for me a still unexplored domain. I will though do my best to answer this… 

Effectively when I create a spot color and, in Designer v.2.1.1, I then assign it a new tint via the right-click, the point in the bottom right corner of its icon disappears. 

N.B. The same doesn't happen when done with Publisher (compare yellow and green)… 

I join a PDF export, with a copy of the settings used, in case you would open it in Acrobat… 

Spot color test.pdf

Spot color test.afdesign

[Oufti]

12 hours ago, thomaso said:

Can you show a screencast that demonstrates this issue of turning a spot swatch into a non-spot swatch by editing it via right-click?

[Note the stupid translation "Point" for Spot… I reported that.]

[thomaso]

5 minutes ago, Oufti said:

Effectively when I create a spot color and, in Designer v.2.1.1, I then assign it a new tint via the right-click, the point in the bottom right corner of its icon disappears. 

N.B. The same doesn't happen when done with Publisher… 

Thanks, and for the video, too. – It appears to be a regression bug since it does not happen to me in V1, neither in AD nor in APub. Here a spot remains spot swatch, regardless of edits of its colour definition.

So a V2 user could create a topic in the V2 error forum (while I guess it was not reported yet).

[Oufti]

28 minutes ago, thomaso said:

So a V2 user could create a topic in the V2 error forum

Done.  

(I don't know why I felt this insistent gaze on me…) 😇

[thomaso]

2 hours ago, Oufti said:

[Note the stupid translation "Point" for Spot… I reported that.]

Nice catch. To me not only "point" sounds smaller than "spot", also "spot" sounds misleading. "Spot" colour implies to be used on certain, especially limited areas only, different to the standard inks CMYK that "may occur everywhere". Although this might be true for specific print layouts a "spot"-like appearance of such an ink is no condition at all.

Technically it is just an extra / additional / special ink aside CMYK. In silk print it is common to print with a non-CMYK ink palette but with a range of individual inks. Same for RISO print, a mixture of silk and offset printing, using a wide range of inks (~ pantone, hks, ral, etc.) in a special hardware, and often, similar to silk print, avoiding rasterisation. It seems this unrasterised use of spot colours is expressed in the French version "Couleur directe", – while a rasterized use of an individual ink palette is especially appealing since it may create more colours and thus increase the palette, like CMYK does.

Unfortunately Affinity lacks in an overprint preview which is a helpful feature when layouting for spot colour inks. Not to mention the missing feature in mixing spot colour swatches, Affinity seems to fail with any rasterisation of spot colours, which excludes pixel brushes and tinting effects like a Shadow or the Overlay Effect (even if applied to vector layers) from spot colour use.

[lepr]

6 hours ago, Oufti said:

Effectively when I create a spot color and, in Designer v.2.1.1, I then assign it a new tint via the right-click, the point in the bottom right corner of its icon disappears. 

N.B. The same doesn't happen when done with Publisher (compare yellow and green)… 

The apps are not differing in behaviour. You edited a colour swatch in Publisher to become defined by a Pantone spot colour, but edited a swatch in Designer to become defined by a Pantone process colour.

When you change the definition of a spot colour swatch to a predefined non-spot colour (as found in a Pantone process colours palette), the swatch ceases to be a spot colour. Similarly, if you now change that swatch's definition to a predefined spot colour (as found in a Pantone spot colours palette), the swatch will return to being a spot colour.

[lacerto]

On 8/23/2023 at 12:48 PM, homeyJay said:

Have I missed something?

At least in v2 Affinity apps the status of a spot color (as a special ink) when editing the representation color is only retained when the spot color to be edited has a "global" status. You can make a non-global spot color global by selecting the swatch and choosing from the context menu "Make Global".

Note that when you initially create a spot color either by choosing it from e.g. PANTONE Formula Guide Solid Coated v5, the status of a created swatch IS global (indicated by a triangle marker at the bottom left corner of the swatch), but if you add it by using the "Add current fill to palette" button of the Swatches panel (to get a properly named PANTONE color), the swatch does not have global status, even if the Color panel misleadingly implies so (showing "Edit Global Color" caption on the editing button) -- if the swatch really is global, its fill name would appear above the spot color name shown in parentheses):

 

Another thing to note is that even if there are multiple objects that have different representation colors defined, but still identical spot color name, when these objects are exported, they will all have the same (edited) representation color. So above the orange ellipse will have the yellow edited appearance in an exported PDF. Any objects with green appearance (created initially by editing the appearance of representation color of [non-global] PANTONE 3564 C), would appear as green, but lost their spot color status and be converted to process colors (as indicated in the Swatches panel as the swatch no longer has a spot color circle mark at the bottom right corner).

 

[Hangman]

2 hours ago, lacerto said:

Note that when you initially create a spot color either by choosing it from e.g. PANTONE Formula Guide Solid Coated v5, the status of a created swatch IS global (indicated by a triangle marker at the bottom left corner of the swatch), but if you add it by using the "Add current fill to palette" button of the Swatches panel (to get a properly names PANTONE color), the swatch does not have global status, even if the Color panel misleadingly implies so (showing "Edit Global Color" caption on the editing button) -- if the swatch really is global, its fill name would appear above the spot color name shown in parentheses):

It is perhaps a little misleading in as much as, when the shape is selected and you initially choose the swatch, you are applying the global swatch to the shape but when adding that swatch to a palette it's being added as a non-global swatch when using the "Add current fill to palette" button so at that point, the non-global swatch hasn't actually been applied to the shape, it's only been added to the palette. If the newly added swatch is selected in the palette when the shape is selected it's only at that point that the non-global swatch is actually applied to the shape at which point it correctly shows as being non-global in the colour palette...

[Dan C]

I recommend viewing my reply to the linked bug report below, as I have found multiple issues in this area -

[Oufti]

7 hours ago, lepr said:

The apps are not differing in behaviour. You edited a colour swatch in Publisher to become defined by a Pantone spot colour, but edited a swatch in Designer to become defined by a Pantone process colour.

When you change the definition of a spot colour swatch to a predefined non-spot colour (as found in a Pantone process colours palette), the swatch ceases to be a spot colour. Similarly, if you now change that swatch's definition to a predefined spot colour (as found in a Pantone spot colours palette), the swatch will return to being a spot colour.

Thank you for correcting me. Choosing a wrong Pantone palette for this test was the result of my lack of vigilance, due to too little practical experience in that domain, despite a good theoretical knowledge what it's about… I'm sorry for this stupid confusion, though I hope it'll help to solve correlated problems found on this occasion.  

 

2 hours ago, Hangman said:

It is perhaps a little misleading in as much as, when the shape is selected and you initially choose the swatch, you are applying the global swatch to the shape but when adding that swatch to a palette it's being added as a non-global swatch when using the "Add current fill to palette" button so at that point, the non-global swatch hasn't actually been applied to the shape, it's only been added to the palette. If the newly added swatch is selected in the palette when the shape is selected it's only at that point that the non-global swatch is actually applied to the shape at which point it correctly shows as being non-global in the colour palette...

In other context, I had exactly the same troubling UX adding a new style with the "Create a (text) style" button when a formatted text is selected: style is created in the Text styles palette but not applied to the text, until I click on the style name in the palette when the text is selected. 

I'd say it's Affinity apps behaviour but I don't like it. 
I'd prefer having the newly defined style (or swatch) directly applied to the text (or the shape), and then the possibility to undo that…