How to get rid of 'flipped' behaviour for text on path

[gw_westdale]

I have a logo that is (almost) symmetrical. I want text on both sides, and having aligned a path to one side I flipped it for the other so that I could add two pieces of text. Adding one word to the first line was just what I wanted; adding a word to the flipped line flipped the text - giving the behaviour I would expect if the text had already been there. I tried reversing the path and pushing the start mark  - no help. It feels as if the transform carries over with the path - can I get rid of it?

Ideas welcome.  

And further to this has anyone found an easy way to say 'put the text on the other side of the path' ? I find the examples with a closed path and two sets of start/end markers rather confusing ( that's why I have two separate lines in this case!)

[walt.farrell]

After flipping the curve, and before adding the text, you could try selecting the curve and adding it to itself. I think you could use Layer > Geometry > Add.

[lepr]

6 hours ago, gw_westdale said:

It feels as if the transform carries over with the path - can I get rid of it?

Ideas welcome.  

Transform the nodes of the path instead of transforming the path:

1. duplicate the good Curve or Curve Path Text object
2. using Node Tool, select all nodes of the new object then do Flip Horizontal

[gw_westdale]

Thanks lepr --- how weird - no idea how you managed to come up with this idea but it works.
The text is then on the same side as the original, but I can push it around using start and end tags.
I'm pretty sure this is a bug. If I do ctlJ (duplicate) I can understand carrying over the transform ready for a further ctlJ  but not if I do (as I did)  ctlC ctlV

[gw_westdale]

Thanks walt -- but flip then using geometry add   has the weird effect that the line completely disappears from the layers 🙂
Feels like a matter/antimatter situation !

Another possible buguette

edit : Using add on  single shape or text converts the item to curve -- on single curve, the curve vanishes.

[gw_westdale]

Incidentally lepr ...
That has some other curiosities.....

if one rotates the curve  then selects all the nodes, a flip happens as expected, which I asume is relative to the midline of the bounding box.
if one rotates the curve and selects some of the nodes a flip of those nodes happens in the direction that applied before the rotation

[lepr]

3 hours ago, gw_westdale said:

Thanks lepr --- how weird - no idea how you managed to come up with this idea but it works.

When an object is flipped, its nodes remain unchanged in the object's coordinate space and the object's transformation matrix is changed to produced the reflection.

Flipping an object's nodes changes the location of each node in the object's coordinate space instead of changing the object's transformation matrix.

[lepr]

2 hours ago, gw_westdale said:

Incidentally lepr ...
That has some other curiosities.....

if one rotates the curve  then selects all the nodes, a flip happens as expected, which I asume is relative to the midline of the bounding box.
if one rotates the curve and selects some of the nodes a flip of those nodes happens in the direction that applied before the rotation

I'll take a look at that when I'm back at the machine with Affinity on it.

[Dan C]

Thanks for your post!

4 hours ago, gw_westdale said:

I'm pretty sure this is a bug. If I do ctlJ (duplicate) I can understand carrying over the transform ready for a further ctlJ  but not if I do (as I did)  ctlC ctlV

4 hours ago, gw_westdale said:

Thanks walt -- but flip then using geometry add   has the weird effect that the line completely disappears from the layers 🙂
Feels like a matter/antimatter situation !

Are you able to attach a copy of the document that shows this, and if possible a short screen recording showing the copy & paste issue?

I would expected that CTRL + J would use Power Duplicate, repeating a previous transform on the object - however I wouldn't expect this when using CTRL + C / CTRL + V.

Equally, I have seen similar reports of curves 'disappearing' when using Expand Stroke, but not when using 'Add' on a singular object, so I'd like to investigate this further.

Many thanks in advance

[gw_westdale]

Here you go Dan  C-- my first time trying to snip a video so I hope it works ok ...
1) draw curve, ctlC/ctlV and Flip the curve, add text to each curve

2) darw shapes circle and square and a curve - add each one to itself in turn - shapes go to curves , curve disappears

ctlCctlVFlip.afdesign

[walt.farrell]

3 hours ago, Dan C said:

Equally, I have seen similar reports of curves 'disappearing' when using Expand Stroke, but not when using 'Add' on a singular object, so I'd like to investigate this further.

That does seem odd, Dan, but I can duplicate it, too. Any open Curve object is deleted if you Select it and then use Geometry > Add. Closed Curve objects are fine.

[Old Bruce]

18 hours ago, gw_westdale said:

Ideas welcome.  

Untitled.afdesign

[Hangman]

Not sure if this is what you're wanting...

[gw_westdale]

Hmm yes .   I was rather hoping for something more like 'take the A tool and click on the side of the line where you want the text to be' (loosely inside or outside)  and for it to be readable

 

[gw_westdale]

Thanks Hangman  ....just seen yours and it's certainly interesting - my first attempt was with one line - a bit like your joined lines but controling with spaces between the words but I ran into trouble trying to fit all three sides 🙂 🙂!!

[Hangman]

The problem with simply duplicating and flipping your line is that you automatically change the reading direction from Left to Right to Right to Left on the duplicate so one approach (as per the video) is to merge the duplicated and flipped curve making it one continuous curve so you are always typing in a Left to Right direction and where you can then control the start and end points for the text...

This way you also don't end up having to add spaces between words or characters to control the spacing which would get awkward if the text content changes...

Anyway, it's only one approach, I'm sure there are others...

[Dan C]

Many thanks for providing these for me, it's certainly helpful!

1 hour ago, gw_westdale said:

1) draw curve, ctlC/ctlV and Flip the curve, add text to each curve

I can see that this has been reported as a bug previously to our team, I agree that I would not expect the text to 'flip' also - or that you are offered the choice to have the text flipped if required.

I'll be sure to 'bump' the development log with your thread now, to bring this to our teams attention once again

2 hours ago, gw_westdale said:

2) darw shapes circle and square and a curve - add each one to itself in turn - shapes go to curves , curve disappears

1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

Any open Curve object is deleted if you Select it and then use Geometry > Add. Closed Curve objects are fine.

My apologies, I had forgotten the difference in expected behaviour here when using Open Curve objects. As I understand it, this is not a bug. As they are unfilled, unclosed objects, the result of any Boolean operation (ie 'Add') is empty and the curve is removed.

I hope this clears things up!

[lepr]

 

7 hours ago, lepr said:

9 hours ago, gw_westdale said:

Incidentally lepr ...
That has some other curiosities.....

if one rotates the curve  then selects all the nodes, a flip happens as expected, which I asume is relative to the midline of the bounding box.
if one rotates the curve and selects some of the nodes a flip of those nodes happens in the direction that applied before the rotation

I'll take a look at that when I'm back at the machine with Affinity on it.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but as far as I can see, Affinity always flips across an axis that is horizontal or vertical in relation to the document.

[gw_westdale]

On 5/30/2023 at 11:43 AM, lepr said:

When an object is flipped, its nodes remain unchanged in the object's coordinate space and the object's transformation matrix is changed to produced the reflection.

Flipping an object's nodes changes the location of each node in the object's coordinate space instead of changing the object's transformation matrix.

 

23 hours ago, lepr said:

 

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but as far as I can see, Affinity always flips across an axis that is horizontal or vertical in relation to the document.

Your second comment is quite right --I confused myself  in an example I created -- the flip of selected nodes is indeed in X or Y of document space.
However, I am then a little confused by your 2nd sentence of the first quote ....  "Flipping an object's nodes changes the location of each node in the object's coordinate space instead of changing the object's transformation matrix."
My reading of that sentence is that if you flip the nodes in Object space, they would then transform with the current transform matrix.... they don't; they ignore it.
That's fine, I guess, it's how it is; more an 'I wouldn't do it that way; I would apply the transform to all nodes of a transformed object'.

 

[lepr]

24 minutes ago, gw_westdale said:

My reading of that sentence is that if you flip the nodes in Object space, they would then transform with the current transform matrix.... they don't; they ignore it.

I did not say nodes get reflected across an axis that is horizontal or vertical in the object's coordinate space.

I said that reflection in Affinity is across an axis that is horizontal or vertical in the document space.

Flipping at object level involves a change to an object's transformation matrix. Flipping at node level involves recalculation of node coordinates in an object's coordinate space.

[gw_westdale]

I put words into your mouth perhaps.
I've done a bit more exploring and nodeflips are not about centre line of the object as I thought but about the centre line of the selected nodes.
At least in the test case of two nodes as attached.  (My earlier tests didn't distinguish this case.)
Incidentally that means that one cannot flip a single node - and the flip symbols are indeed not available.
Thanks for your help - the flip of 'all nodes' is a useful tool.
And if I remember to do any node flipping before rotating, I shall save myself nightmares about how it 'ought' to happen!  🙂

nodeflips.afdesign

[lepr]

Here's a diagram that might help readers understand flipping nodes of an object versus flipping an object: