Clone Brush feature suggestion

[nickbatz]

The ability to draw a source path for the Clone Brush to track.

It would be very useful if you want to clone, for example, a source that follows a vertical winding path to a destination that follows a horizontal one.

Ideally that wouldn't replace the existing options, like being able to rotate and resize the source, etc.

(I use Affinity Photo for Modern art giclée rather than editing photos the way most people use it, and this is something I encounter every couple of minutes.)

Thanks. Love the program.

[Old Bruce]

Not sure if this would work the way you would want it to. You would have to mark out the axis for the source and the start location. I think it would be just as easy to duplicate the source layer and rotate that.

[nickbatz]

Oh, it would work exactly the way I'd want it to!

As it is, the destination path is free - you can move the mouse every which way. But the source can only follow along at a fixed distance, as if it's at the other end of a pole.

I'm suggesting that you be able to lay tracks for the source to move along.

Extreme example below: let's say I want to use some of the border from the left snippet as the source for the border on the right snippet. Obviously I was able to do it a different way (and in fact I used a different part of the much larger image to create it), but this feature - admittedly not a simple one! - would mean you don't have to keep repositioning the source cursor when it goes too far and starts cloning things you don't want.

And yes, I do know about copying and pasting, brushes, warp, what have you.

 

[GarryP]

I’ve read your request a couple of times but I’m still not entirely sure what you are asking for.
It sounds like it might be useful in some ways, if I have understood some of it, but the practicalities of implementation would need to be specified more clearly before it could be deemed to be possible/practical.

I can understand laying out a path to be used as the source for the cloning operation. Essentially saying: “I want the clone brush source to only take the pixels that are specified by this path.” That sounds like it could be useful in various cases where the user might only want to clone from certain areas which ‘make sense’ to clone from (e.g. just stick to this curve of the chin and don’t stray onto the neck). I’m not sure how the user could specify this path but that’s something which could be discussed later, if necessary.

However, I’m unsure as to how the software could translate from the pixels along that finite path to the user actions with the mouse which are (theoretically) infinite. Since the software doesn’t know how far you will be moving the mouse pointer, it will have to somehow ‘guess’ which pixels along the path you want to clone from based upon how much mouse movement there has been already.

It’s a bit like, and please forgive my clumsy ‘mathematical’ phrases, either (A) mapping a finite domain – the path – to an infinite range – the mouse movements – or (B) mapping a finite domain – the path – to an infinite number of finite ranges – recalculating the whole operation for every mouse movement. Or, even worse, assuming that the path itself has an infinity of ‘way-points’, mapping an infinite domain to an infinite range. I just don’t see how it could be practically achieved without being increasingly computationally-expensive.

If I have got any or all of this wrong then it might be good if you can give us one or more annotated visual examples of what you want to do. A picture or two showing how you think the process should work might make it much clearer.

[nickbatz]

Sorry, you guys simply aren't getting it. Or if you are, I don't understand the resistance!

This is very simple - to suggest, I'm sure not to program.

Look at the odd-shaped border on the left blob in my post above and the relatively straight border on the right one. The one on the right already has the border I want to create, a straight fuzzy black thing (in other words this is an "after" picture).

So in my fantasy, I'd draw a path around the left blob. Then I'd mouse down the right one's edge. For every inch I move the mouse down - or in any direction - along the right edge, the source moves an inch along the track I drew on the left. (Or it could be scaled, but that introduces complexity to this explanation.)

And of course the destination doesn't have to be a border, it could be a random shape using the source pixels in any way.

Again, what I'm doing is not traditional photography, I just use photos as a starting point. But Affinity Photo isn't just for retouching, it's a very creative tool.

I used the Clone Brush a lot in this picture (which you have to imagine at 17"x26", the max my printer will do - I'm probably going to have it printed much larger).

[carl123]

8 hours ago, nickbatz said:

Sorry, you guys simply aren't getting it.

Nope

 

On 4/28/2022 at 8:24 PM, nickbatz said:

Extreme example below:

Maybe a simple example would help us understand, better, what it is exactly you want to do

Your artwork style is obviously niche, something you understand but if you want others to, we will need "baby steps"

 

8 hours ago, nickbatz said:

Sorry, you guys simply aren't getting it. Or if you are, I don't understand the resistance!

There is no resistance, just a desire to understand exactly what you need and how to help you.

[nickbatz]

52 minutes ago, carl123 said:

There is no resistance, just a desire to understand exactly what you need and how to help you.

Hm. Well, of course I appreciate help, but this is a feature request. 

Here's a simple scribbled example. I want to clone the image on the left to look like the right. So - in this dream - I draw the line on the left over the source (the green line with the arrows) to create a track, and then mouse the clone tool as shown on the right.

Perhaps the sticking point is that you're thinking of the clone tool just as a stamp, the way James Ritson uses it to create flowers in the official video? I often drag it.

You know, I happen to be a music tech magazine editor/writer by trade, have written several product manuals and many other things... and at this stage in my illustrious career I'm usually able to explain things pretty clearly!

 

 

 

 

[nickbatz]

The lines I drew are arbitrary, of course. I could just copy the inverted U and paste it sideways in this example, but the point is that the destination path goes all over the place.

Notice how the source path goes back to the beginning when I reach the end while mousing over the destination path.

I find it hard to believe that I'm the only one who does this!

[GarryP]

Thanks for the extra explanations and images.
That makes things a bit clearer but I still have some questions.

15 hours ago, nickbatz said:

For every inch I move the mouse down - or in any direction - along the right edge, the source moves an inch along the track I drew on the left.

How are you measuring that mouse movement? Are you measuring the direct distance from the first mouse-down event coordinates, or the distance along some kind of ‘target track’ produced by the mouse movement? If a ‘target track’ is created, what sort of approximation/stabilisation will it be calculated with, if any?

15 hours ago, nickbatz said:

And of course the destination doesn't have to be a border, it could be a random shape using the source pixels in any way.

Since the mouse can move freely in any direction it could ‘come back on itself’ to be in the same place as it started from, or any other point along the ‘target track’. How would that be handled as it would mean that any target point could be cloned from many source points? Should the original cloned area take precedence or not?

5 hours ago, nickbatz said:

Notice how the source path goes back to the beginning when I reach the end while mousing over the destination path.

Once the end of the source track has been reached, where would the next source clone area come from? Would it be from the very start of the source track or at some distance along the source track calculated from the distance the mouse has moved beyond the end of the source track?

What happens if every mouse movement is always larger than the length of the source track? It’s probably not likely but it’s possible so the developers will need to make the software cope with that so they will need to know what to do.

[nickbatz]

11 hours ago, GarryP said:

 

How are you measuring that mouse movement? Are you measuring the direct distance from the first mouse-down event coordinates, or the distance along some kind of ‘target track’ produced by the mouse movement? If a ‘target track’ is created, what sort of approximation/stabilisation will it be calculated with, if any?

[EDIT: I use the words "target" and "destination" interchangeably.]

Most of that wouldn't change.

The way the Clone Brush works now is you Option-click on the source point, then click on the target/destination point to clone the source. If you click-drag on the target area, you can see the source cursor follow along as if it were on the other end of a pole; the length of the pole is determined by where you start click-dragging to start the target.

There are options for the destination: change the rotation, size, and direction... but all that is already good.

The only thing that would change is where the source moves. Instead of following along the target at a fixed distance, it would follow along on a track.

(Side feature request: the little + symbol source cursor could be made more visible.)

 

11 hours ago, GarryP said:

Since the mouse can move freely in any direction it could ‘come back on itself’ to be in the same place as it started from, or any other point along the ‘target track’.

How would that be handled as it would mean that any target point could be cloned from many source points? Should the original cloned area take precedence or not?

Once the end of the source track has been reached, where would the next source clone area come from? Would it be from the very start of the source track or at some distance along the source track calculated from the distance the mouse has moved beyond the end of the source track?

What happens if every mouse movement is always larger than the length of the source track? It’s probably not likely but it’s possible so the developers will need to make the software cope with that so they will need to know what to do.

If you look at my scribble, you'll see that the circle/square/triangle pattern from the source is repeated in the destination when I get to the end. It just cycles back to the beginning of the track. (You'll note that the source has ten circle/square/triangle shapes and the destination has 20.)

[nickbatz]

It would have been clearer if I'd numbered the triangle/circle/square pattern sequentially, to show that the source goes back to the beginning when the target gets to the end.

I could also have drawn an arrow connecting the end of the source back to the beginning.

Still, I think it's pretty clear.

[nickbatz]

18 hours ago, carl123 said:

Your artwork style is obviously niche, something you understand but if you want others to, we will need "baby steps"

 

By the way by the way... "niche."

I guess that could be taken several ways. 

First, if you go to any museum and look at Modern art going back well over 100 years, by comparison it's hard to imagine you'd find anything I do particularly radical or obscure!

But re: Affinity Photo, is it really unusual for people to use the creative tools in a photo editor as, well, creative tools? To me this is just a different kind of paint brush - an extremely cool one. Surely there are many other people who use the Clone Brush in ways that go beyond just retouching (or adding more poppies to a field)?

[Old Bruce]

26 minutes ago, nickbatz said:

The only thing that would change is where the source moves. Instead of following along the target at a fixed distance, it would follow along on a track.

Fine, and what happens when I lift the pen and move to a new spot and start dragging again? Does the source move to the start of the track or does it stay in the middle of the track? Does the computer calculate some intermediate point on the track according to how far I have moved the pen from the start and end points that I have just finished dragging out?

What happens if I go over the same part of the image that I have just dragged on, think of me moving the pen back and forth, back and forth, back and forth? Meaning that the drag is longer than the track or shorter than the track. Sometimes longer then shorter.

[nickbatz]

1 minute ago, Old Bruce said:

Fine, and what happens when I lift the pen and move to a new spot and start dragging again? Does the source move to the start of the track or does it stay in the middle of the track? Does the computer calculate some intermediate point on the track according to how far I have moved the pen from the start and end points that I have just finished dragging out?

What happens if I go over the same part of the image that I have just dragged on, think of me moving the pen back and forth, back and forth, back and forth? Meaning that the drag is longer than the track or shorter than the track. Sometimes longer then shorter.

Your first question is a good one. I guess that would have to be an option - stop and continue vs. start over at the beginning of the track.

The second question I already answered above: the source has to cycle back to the beginning if the target is longer.

Bear in mind that I'm not advocating for any changes to the existing Clone Brush behavior, I'm suggesting an additional feature.

***

There's a very clear parallel to this in my music technology world. When you release a note and play it again, does [an oscillator, sample, envelope, probably other things] cycle to the beginning or continue?

[GarryP]

It seems like there may be some misunderstandings on both ‘sides’ of the discussion.

I think it might help me to understand a bit more if you tried this little exercise…
If you would, please take my attached document and copy the coloured rectangles (from the bottom grid, which shows the mouse movements) over the pixel-aligned areas to which they would correspond in the top grid (which shows the source track and source pixels) but following the source track according to the mouse movement.

Please keep in mind that the mouse movements are not necessarily integer pixel distances and that the distance moved can sometimes be greater than the length of the source track.

clone along track 2.afdesign

[Alfred]

On 4/28/2022 at 12:31 AM, nickbatz said:

The ability to draw a source path for the Clone Brush to track.

It would be good if either the OP or a moderator were to correct the topic title. Every time I visit this thread I find myself wondering what a Cone Brush might be like!

[GarryP]

10 minutes ago, Alfred said:

I find myself wondering what a Cone Brush might be like!

I simply couldn’t resist.

[nickbatz]

I honestly don't think there's any confusion on my part at all!

 

 

[GarryP]

Well, that’s me done with this topic.
I wish you luck in getting this implemented as it sounds like it could be useful if the implementation details can be properly specified.