Fonts allowed in a packaged file

[kenmcd]

EDIT: For anyone trying to understand this post/thread... it was split from the thread below. Not sure why as it loses all context split-off like this and makes no sense alone. This post was originally a reply to a question in the other thread.

 

Wadda mess.

It appears that all the fonts from TypeKit have modified embedding rights (more restrictive).
They are all: Preview & Print (read-only)
So no editing at all.

Brix Slab Bold (from TypeKit) cannot be installed or used to edit the document.
It is set to: Preview & Print (read-only)
Which is apparently the same as the originals.

The Calibri fonts in the package are also from TypeKit, and they have been "Modified".
Normal Calibri fonts on Windows are: Editable (read-write)
But these ones from TypeKit are: Preview & Print (read-only)
So perhaps that is what is meant by the "Modified" notation.

The HelveticaNeue font in the package is one of those Apple-sabotaged TTC files.
It cannot be installed on Windows.

The ZapfDingbats.ttf just looks defective to Windows.
Because it is.
It is another one of the Apple-only fonts.
EDIT: my snap judgement on this font was wrong .
(based on name being empty in a particular font editor)
Actually it is just a very old TrueType symbol font (non-Unicode).
It will install and does work in Windows.

TypeKit cloud fonts ... wadda nightmare.

 

[R C-R]

25 minutes ago, LibreTraining said:

Brix Slab Bold (from TypeKit) cannot be installed or used to edit the document.

I am not going to test this, but once I exposed the .17096.otf font in the Mac Finder & use Open With to open it in Font Book, I get this:

Also, by clicking the "Install" tick box in the Package Document > Fonts section, I could both edit text in the document using that font & add new text to it using that font in a new text frame or art text object, but only to that document. For example, on page 4 I changed "Trainer" to "TxxxxNER" & it is still using Brix Slab bold.

So yeah, it is a mess but maybe a different kind of mess on Macs than on Windows?

[R C-R]

2 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

I believe that Opening the package file is supposed to install them locally (if you don't mess with the Install checkboxes) for use in that Publisher session while you have the package open.

I assume that is the way it is supposed to work but see my screenshot above showing Brix Slab open in the Mac Font Book & the (I assume) functional "Install Font" button. It is as if for the Mac version they just assumed that hiding the font from Finder with the leading period would be enough to prevent it being installed for use in other documents.

[R C-R]

26 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

I am not concerned (in this topic) about users "cheating" and using the package files in unexpected ways (that is, outside of the interfaces provided by Publisher for use within the application).

OK, but all Serif is doing in the package format is to start certain files with a period which does not prevent Mac users from displaying them or opening them with Font Book. That's a lame, lazy way to keep Mac users from installing 'restricted' fonts. Besides, it is not "cheating" to display hidden fonts in Finder using a simple keyboard shortcut that Apple built into the macOS for this specific purpose around 4-5 years ago.

[kenmcd]

41 minutes ago, R C-R said:

I am not going to test this, but once I exposed the .17096.otf font in the Mac Finder & use Open With to open it in Font Book, I get this:

Also, by clicking the "Install" tick box in the Package Document > Fonts section, I could both edit text in the document using that font & add new text to it using that font in a new text frame or art text object, but only to that document. For example, on page 4 I changed "Trainer" to "TxxxxNER" & it is still using Brix Slab bold.

So yeah, it is a mess but maybe a different kind of mess on Macs than on Windows?

The restrictions are on an embedded font (like embedded in a PDF, or EPS).
And it is up to the application to follow those restrictions (which they could ignore).
Once you have the actual font file, you are able to do whatever you want.
 

[R C-R]

3 minutes ago, LibreTraining said:

The restrictions are on an embedded font (like embedded in a PDF, or EPS).

But apparently not in an *.afpackage file?

[kenmcd]

14 minutes ago, R C-R said:

But apparently not in an *.afpackage file?

Apparently the Affinity apps will temporarily install those hidden fonts so whomever is opening the package will be able to see the document as designed - but they cannot change that text.

I assume that if the fonts were marked as Installable that you could actually install them.

The Arial and the Times New Roman in the package are set as Editable (read-write).
So those would be temporarily installed so they could be used (in Affinity).

Probably the same with the Mac fonts if the user is on a Mac.

[MikeW]

Interesting conversation. Also interesting that Serif packages Adobe's cloud fonts, which, when I last read the EULA, was not allowed. 

I don't have a current subscription so cannot check to see what other non-Adobe applications do.

[R C-R]

3 hours ago, LibreTraining said:

Apparently the Affinity apps will temporarily install those hidden fonts so whomever is opening the package will be able to see the document as designed - but they cannot change that text.

But like I said here, I had no trouble changing "Trainer" to "TxxxxNER" in the document. It remained in the Brix Slab bold font, & I also could add new frame text & art text items to that document using that same font.

[lacerto]

On 3/1/2022 at 4:10 AM, MikeW said:

Also interesting that Serif packages Adobe's cloud fonts, which, when I last read the EULA, was not allowed. 

I am not sure if this is up-to-date, but this one definitely forbids inclusion of CC fonts:

https://helpx.adobe.com/fonts/using/package-font-files.html

I do not have currently InDesign or Illustrator CC subscription on, either, so I cannot check what happens when cloud fonts are tried to be packaged from within CC apps, but this is what happens if it is tried with e.g. InDesign CS6:

...so no fonts included.

What Adobe mentions above about Fontspring applies to the desktop licenses, and they explicitly allow packaging fonts for printing purposes (and distribution of fonts to a designer or developer) even if the receiving party does not have a license (traditionally the prerequisite has been that the receiver has a valid license, but in practise this is never really checked):

The prices of Fontspring are a bit higher than ones on other sites (like MyFonts.com) so perhaps this is explained by the extended license.

Anyway, the extended license applies to desktop fonts (physical fonts separately purchased and installed on the system), so what Affinity does here, appears to be against the license if not downright illegal, as the routine makes cloud fonts physical ones and fully installable to be used permanently in any app and system. I do not think that illegal use or distribution can be pinned on the user, as the font serialization itself and inclusion of cloud fonts in the package is kind of an encouragement to use fonts against the license, and probably something that is not allowed.

[MikeW]

I checked. CC does not package Adobe Cloud fonts on the user system. 

[Wosven]

14 minutes ago, MikeW said:

CC does not package Adobe Cloud fonts on the user system.

And if you don't have TypeKit activated, you need to do so in your account to be able to select and activate the fonts you need for a document using them.

[R C-R]

8 hours ago, Lagarto said:

I am not sure if this is up-to-date, but this one definitely forbids inclusion of CC fonts:

I am not nor have I even been a CC user so maybe someone can clear this up for me. From https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/brix-slab#fonts-section, it appears that Brix Slab is part of the Adobe Fonts library so I gather its use is restricted. However, I also found https://freefontsfamily.com/brix-slab-font-free/ & https://www.wfonts.com/font/brix-slab & https://www.fontsmarket.com/font-download/brix-slab-black, all of which offer a 'free' version.

So with respect to the ExampleDocument that includes a (semi-hidden on Macs) version of Brix Slab Bold, is it possible that is not really the restricted one, & how could I determine if it was or not?

[Wosven]

I'm not sure the sites you cite have rights to distribute this font:

https://www.fontshop.com/families/brix-slab

https://www.fontshop.com/foundries/hvd-fonts

https://www.fontshop.com/foundries/hvd-fonts/eulas/hvd-eula-dsk

 

18 minutes ago, R C-R said:

it appears that Brix Slab is part of the Adobe Fonts library so I gather its use is restricted.

https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/brix-slab

https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/brix-slab#licensing-section

And the FAQ previously mentioned:

https://helpx.adobe.com/fr/fonts/using/font-licensing.html

And especially:

Quote

Are the fonts compatible with the InDesign or Illustrator packaging workflow that I use to send documents out for printing?

No. The Terms of Use do not permit the fonts to be transferred to another user or computer, so they cannot be packaged with the file. The printer needs to have their own license for the fonts, either through a Creative Cloud subscription or as a perpetual desktop license purchase.

There is more information in the Packaging font files help page.

 

[R C-R]

5 minutes ago, Wosven said:

I'm not sure the sites you cite have rights to distribute this font:

I am not sure either, but there seems to be both for-purchase & free versions 'in the wild' on the web, so I am still looking for a way to determine exactly what version was included in the ExampleDocument.

At least on my Mac, the only thing I can think of is what I do not want to try, that being using Font Book to attempt to install the font & then looking for any licensing info included for it Font Book can show after it is installed.

[lacerto]

1 hour ago, R C-R said:

is it possible that is not really the restricted one, & how could I determine if it was or not?

I am not sure if it is possible (the receiving party might want to install whatever is supplied simply to be certain that the right [version of] font is used, and quite often this is done without exchanging any words about licenses -- but in professional context all parties often have a license for fonts exchanged by way of owning e.g. FontFolio, or subscribing to CC, and when fonts for which a license does not exist are delivered, I think that they are just installed for use and then uninstalled and deleted when no longer needed).

But the point is that the software that packages the job definitely knows whether a font is installed on the system and resides on the disk or if it is a cloud font, and typically also the user knows for what they have paid (purchased as singular fonts / font families), and which are ones activated on the cloud service. If we assume that packaging is done e.g. for the printer in the same purpose as page layout apps traditionally have done when the job for one reason or another needs to be delivered as an open project (instead of submitting a production PDF with embedded fonts), then why are CC fonts delivered in the first place, since every printer certainly needs to have a CC subscription active? So basically I cannot see any other than (potential) illegal use for this kind of font packaging.

[R C-R]

If I can't tell if the installed version is a restricted one or not, it is still not clear to me how APub can do that. For example, can APub always access the licensing terms or might there be sandboxing restrictions or some other issue that prevents that?

From what I can tell on my Mac, Font Book doesn't even show any licensing terms for most installed fonts, & I yet to find any better way to find those terms other than searching through the web sites of font foundries & hoping I can find some way to determine if what I have installed is the same one they list.

As far as I can tell, APub's help basically says to check with the manufacturer or distributor, which seems to suggest the app can't do that reliably on its own, but who knows?

[MikeW]

Cloud fonts are typically located in a hidden folder, using alpha, numeric and/or alphanumeric naming and are hidden from the user by default. 

Serif could check the visibility of the folder and/or the font files themselves. I'm fairly certain there would be a way to exclude the files. 

[MikeW]

Taken from a Stack overflow discussion:

***Windows: C:\Users\<your user name>\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\CoreSync\plugins\livetype\r
***Mac: /Users/<your user name>/Library/Application Support/Adobe/CoreSync/plugins/livetype/.r

***You can see the font manifest in livetype/c/entitlements.xml

Shouldn't be too hard. I suspect the other cloud font vendors do something similar.

[R C-R]

1 hour ago, MikeW said:

Serif could check the visibility of the folder and/or the font files themselves.

Maybe, but if like I have done using a keyboard shortcut built into all recent versions of the macOS to unhide hidden files, I have to wonder if just checking visibility would be enough.

As for checking the files themselves, does anyone have an idea of what to look for, particularly on Macs?

[lacerto]

44 minutes ago, MikeW said:

Shouldn't be too hard. I suspect the other cloud font vendors do something similar.

Additionally, system installed fonts can be read from the system registry (Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Fonts) on Windows, which basically shows the same information as the Fonts of the Control Panel. I am sure macOS has a similar feature. Cloud-based fonts cannot be copied from their cache locations accidentally.

[R C-R]

1 hour ago, Lagarto said:

I am sure macOS has a similar feature.

Anyone have an idea about where to find that? As near as I can tell, the Mac equivalent to the Windows Control Panel would be the Font Book app, but it does not typically include much if any licensing info.

[kenmcd]

From Brix Slab Bold font which is in the package (.17096.otf).

[R C-R]

Just now, LibreTraining said:

From Brix Slab Bold font which is in the package (.17096.otf).

What are you using to get that info? Is there any Mac equivalent?

Also, why is the "License Agreement" field blank?

[MikeW]

38 minutes ago, R C-R said:

...Also, why is the "License Agreement" field blank?

Because the license url is present. Wanna read the license? Go to that url.