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Hi,

I would like to suggest you to allow negative values for the bleed as an option. I am used to add bleed to the page size and negative bleed will just do the job for me.

Yes, I know that I can add guidelines or adjust the margins, but this is much simplier to do. Bleeds and margins can be visible at the same time on the page and easier to work.


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Sounds you don't want bleed but two different margins and no calculating. So, why not set the document page size as usually in your workflow (including bleed) and then type the bleed into the page size fields with – (minus) to get the calculated result? This way you don't have to calculate yourself and can type "negative bleed".

On 5/3/2019 at 2:04 PM, Petar Petrenko said:

Bleeds and margins can be visible at the same time on the page and easier to work. 

To make them visible "at the same time": Select in menu > "View" > "Show Bleed" and "Show Margins" and don't activate "Preview Mode".

To make bleed appear "on the page" it needs a workaround, cause bleed - simply by definition - is NOT on the layout page. To make it look like beeing on the page you could set the UI background Gray to White (App Preferences > General), so both page and bleed look the same.

Otherwise I don't understand your desire in detail: if bleed is set as part of the documents page it would be necessary to set the bleed for facing pages at the inner edge to zero. But then, in print process, these areas don't print a bleed – which wouldn't be very helpful.

 


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15 hours ago, thomaso said:

Sounds you don't want bleed but two different margins and no calculating. 

And what is "Bleed" if not another type of margin but outside the paper size? If we go deeply, bleed and margins are kind of a guide lines that help you do the job easily.

15 hours ago, thomaso said:

So, why not set the document page size as usually in your workflow (including bleed) and then type the bleed into the page size fields with – (minus) to get the calculated result?

And you get the paper size exluding bleed, which I don't want.

As I said, simply allowing negative values in bleed fields will do a really great job.


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Why not except that the whole industry thinks otherwise.

Accepted model is that document you build with your graphic app presents the final product (page), which printer then transfers to presenting medium (sheet). You do not have to know sheet size, that is printer's business (imposition). Bleeds are outside the page but within the sheet.

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1 minute ago, Fixx said:

Why not except that the whole industry thinks otherwise.

Accepted model is that document you build with your graphic app presents the final product (page), which printer then transfers to presenting medium (sheet). You do not have to know sheet size, that is printer's business (imposition). Bleeds are outside the page but within the sheet.

Nothing revolutionary will happen in the print industry if bleed can take negative arguments. It will be just more flexible. Would it make problems to you?

If you think same as others, you won't grow.


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On 5/3/2019 at 2:04 PM, Petar Petrenko said:

Bleeds and margins can be visible at the same time on the page

 

2 hours ago, Petar Petrenko said:

Nothing revolutionary will happen in the print industry if bleed can take negative arguments.

You seem not to understand the complete use of bleed; it is more than just more space on a page. Therefore PDF has a defined "box model" for the industry, thanks this a printer software can decide which box is necessary for a particular print workflow and which not.

2021480111_pdfboxes.png.529156b7df4921787f27c6a06827aac8.png

The advantage of bleed not being on the page ("trim box") but in its own area ("bleed box") is that this way a printer software simply can ignore the cropmarks delivered in a PDF and instead place its own and place such a page according to the print paper size (often larger than the bleed box) even several times with minimal waste of space.

So, your desire to use bleed as negative area on a document page definitely would influence the industry – or simply ignored in a print workflow because of not recognized as bleed.

However, as mentioned before, AfPub already does enable you to set a crop mark area ON the page AND enter its values as negative: just don't type them in the bleed but page size setting and get it calculated there. Disadvantage: you don't get auto-cropmarks on export. But even those will be available sooner or later with a script in AfPub (as it exists for InDesign since years).


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3 hours ago, Petar Petrenko said:

Nothing revolutionary will happen in the print industry if bleed can take negative arguments. It will be just more flexible. Would it make problems to you? ...

Petar, this would break every semi-automated and fully-automated work-flow industry wide. It would break imposition applications. It would break ...

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I use bleed just to see where the croping will be done. I send to the pre-press firm only clean page, without croping marks and another additional elements. They add them there themselves after I tell them how much I left for bleed. And I have no problems for 25+ years of my experience.


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6 minutes ago, Petar Petrenko said:

I use bleed just to see where the croping will be done. I send to the pre-press firm only clean page, without croping marks and another additional elements. They add them there themselves after I tell them how much I left for bleed. And I have no problems for 25+ years of my experience.

You can shut off the so-called printer marks and information whether you have bleed or not. They are unneeded anyway for many print establishments.

But a negative bleed isn't the way to achieve what I think you want.

The PDF spec itself doesn't allow a bleed box setting of less than the trim box (page size). It too (the pdf spec) would need rewritten to allow for what you are asking for. And that isn't going to happen.

As regards the page box graphic above, there is only one application that I know of that can create an art box inside a page and no one I know actually knows how to do it, and in all my years of print service work, I've never seen such a PDF.

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30 minutes ago, thomaso said:

You seem not to understand the complete use of bleed; it is more than just more space on a page. Therefore PDF has a defined "box model" for the industry, thanks this a printer software can decide which box is necessary for a particular print workflow and which not.

I know very well what you are talking about and I undestand the complete process. BTW I used to work that way at the very beggining of this business, but I was asked from a few companies doing imposition, NOT to add any additional marks because they have to remove them and replace with there own it was just waisting their time. And I had no problems ever since.


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3 minutes ago, MikeW said:

The PDF spec itself doesn't allow a bleed box setting of less than the trim box (page size). It too (the pdf spec) would need rewritten to allow for what you are asking for. And that isn't going to happen.

I do not check "bleed" marks when exporting to PDF. So, I need it only for visual composition, not to add additional guidelines, or so.


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Just now, Petar Petrenko said:

I do not check "bleed" marks when exporting to PDF.

I don't know how your statement pertains to my PDF spec statement.

But otherwise then I fail to see the point of your request. If your print service doesn't want print marks/information, and you are not using print print marks/information, then what exactly is the point of the request?

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4 minutes ago, Petar Petrenko said:

I do not check "bleed" marks when exporting to PDF. So, I need it only for visual composition, not to add additional guidelines, or so.

here it is.


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If Affinity add by default non-printing guides layer, everything will be fine. There we can put anything we need to be used as guides, so I will put a rectangle that is 3 mm smaller from each side (automatically converted to a guide) and used it as a "bleed" mark.


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20 minutes ago, MikeW said:

As regards the page box graphic above, there is only one application that I know of that can create an art box inside a page and no one I know actually knows how to do it, and in all my years of print service work, I've never seen such a PDF.

The "Art Box" is generated automatically in every not-empty PDF. It simply is a virtual rectangle around all printable or visible content/elements on a documents page.
(History: compare a Postscript file vs. PDF:  a postscript file contains the artbox only but no page size.)


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43 minutes ago, Petar Petrenko said:

I use bleed just to see where the croping will be done.

Yes, like everyone does. – So why are you unhappy with the bleed options in AfPub? You can use it but don't have to, you can set it and change it any time, you can always see it as guides around your page or set it to invisible.

In case you want bleed to be a part of your layout then it is not that "bleed" which is used by industry for automatic workflow. It might look for you the same and you might us it the the same way but it simply results in a paper which is a bit too large and needs to get cropped. That is the historical workflow used before DTP and automatic printing industry bleed standard. That's why a layout software nowadays does not make the effort to make a UI for it.


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40 minutes ago, thomaso said:

The "Art Box" is generated automatically in every not-empty PDF. It simply is a virtual rectangle around all printable or visible content/elements on a documents page.
(History: compare a Postscript file vs. PDF:  a postscript file contains the artbox only but no page size.)

Create me a pdf where the artbox is within the page as per your image, please. It can be done. But ...

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1 hour ago, Petar Petrenko said:
1 hour ago, Petar Petrenko said:

I do not check "bleed" marks when exporting to PDF. So, I need it only for visual composition, not to add additional guidelines, or so.

here it is.

Then how does just setting guides on a master page(s) not accomplish your request?

I guess I would need a visual aid. I do understand the non-printing layer thing for guides. Xara products have such an arrangement and any line or object can be on that layer and become a guide. I use it a lot in my Xara application, but not for what I understand of your request.

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48 minutes ago, thomaso said:

So why are you unhappy with the bleed options in AfPub?

Who said I am unhappy? I simply suggested negative values to be allowed.


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2 minutes ago, Petar Petrenko said:

... I simply suggested negative values to be allowed.

The PDF spec doesn't allow it, therefore no application developer would attempt it. No commercial processing would process those PDFs properly even if some unwise developer attempted it. Not until a spec change.

If you want to have such a thing allowed, I suggest you make contact with Leonard Rosenthol  (who is a Senior Principal Scientist with Adobe Systems and serves as their PDF Architect) and/or Dov Isaacs (same role at Adobe), and should they think it a good idea, then perhaps they can approach the ISO committee to have the specs changed, and maybe then applications can change to such a model. (But none of that can/will happen.)

Your request, using the explicit terms you are using, cannot be accomplished.

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OK, guilty as charge. :)


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9 minutes ago, Petar Petrenko said:

OK, guilty as charge. :)

;)

But...having a guide layer one can add shapes to for guide purposes? I would go for that, at least in AD. I don't really understand the utility in a layout application still...

 

Capture_000018.png

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2 hours ago, MikeW said:

But ...

I am apparently missing the forest through the trees... – What "But ..." ?


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18 minutes ago, thomaso said:

I am apparently missing the forest through the trees... – What "But ..." ?

But I doubt you can. 

The artbox serves no purpose in a pdf. It can be changed in Acrobat. But as far as I recall, only Illustrator could size an artbox to the page's art. I don't even know if it still can.

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12 minutes ago, MikeW said:

The artbox serves no purpose in a pdf

Isn't it simply a shorter term for "rectangle around all content". I assume it doesn't have to serve any purpose besides communication about it.

14 minutes ago, MikeW said:

only Illustrator could size an artbox to the page's art.

Hm? I'd say if you draw or scale an object – in any layout app – up to paper size than it results in an ArtBox in page's size.


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