lacerto Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 9 minutes ago, KarinC said: It occurred to me in the middle of the night that the default black is really 86% gray. It is an ad-hoc grayscale value B14 (Photoshop G86) of K100 that has been converted to R35, G31, B32 and presented as rounded intensity of its light value (14), based on your currently active color profile environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lacerto Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 19 minutes ago, KarinC said: The lower box of text is 100% gray. If you refer to the screenshot, it is the opacity value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarinC Posted February 8 Author Share Posted February 8 The opacity is 100% on both. I just didn't include the gray scale for the lower text frame. I just adjusted the same slider to 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarinC Posted February 8 Author Share Posted February 8 (edited) 15 minutes ago, lacerto said: It is an ad-hoc grayscale value B14 (Photoshop G86) of K100 that has been converted to R35, G31, B32 and presented as rounded intensity of its light value (14), based on your currently active color profile environment. Okay. I will accept that. Even though I don't understand it. Edited February 8 by KarinC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomaso Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 28 minutes ago, lacerto said: No color, no light (L = 0). Do we use the term "colour" differently? In my understanding a saturation of 100 represents an intensive colour (-> tint/shade/tone) but depends on its luminance to get visible, while, imho, black & white are colours, too. 26 minutes ago, lacerto said: #231F20 (RGB conversion for K100) -- I do not have macOS version 1.x installed currently but the Windows 1.x version gives the same. Strange, so it seems to be mac/Windows thing that I get the HSL values in your V1.afpub reported differently than you in Windows. Nevertheless, wouldn't you expect for #231F20 an HSL ≠ 0 … whereas #00000 corresponds with L = 0? Quote macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomaso Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 51 minutes ago, KarinC said: I just didn't include the gray scale for the lower text frame. I just adjusted the same slider to 100%. Same reason as mentioned before: In a CMYK document the default black is 0 0 0 100 K, which is 1/4 of the possible max sum of values and thus 100 K is less than 100 Gray. Furthermore, yellow ink is lighter than black ink, they represent different lightness (luminance), and also the current document profile matters (and may change the reported gray value for 100 K). Quote macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarinC Posted February 8 Author Share Posted February 8 In summary then, with all of the above information taken into account, if you are using the CMYK profile that I was using, should one use the default black (which is 86% gray) for black text on a white background? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomaso Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 1 hour ago, KarinC said: In summary then, with all of the above information taken into account, if you are using the CMYK profile that I was using, should one use the default black (which is 86% gray) for black text on a white background? Yes, as @lacerto's video demonstrates, the black & gray in the 4 default swatches create a colour depending on the current document colour space, with black resulting in 0 0 0 100 for a CMYK document (and 0 0 0 for RGB document), regardless of the current profile. The video also indicates that Grayscale "actually" uses RGB in Affinity, not a pure K channel. Thus to check a colour definition chose either RGB or CMYK sliders in the Colours panel. If you have the lock opened when selecting an object the slider will automatically reflect (switch to) the colour space and model that was used for the object colour or swatch creation. Quote macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lacerto Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 9 hours ago, thomaso said: Strange, so it seems to be mac/Windows thing that I get the HSL values in your V1.afpub reported differently than you in Windows. Yes, there seems to be a difference. 9 hours ago, thomaso said: Do we use the term "colour" differently? Personally I see this HSL conversion irrelevant (meaningless). Basically having C, M and Y as zero, and only black component, there is no color, only "lightness", or in terms of media, decreasing amount of reflected light, absorbed of all color, perceived as a "shade". As long as L = 0, H and S can have any values, the appearance does not change, and you cannot have meaningless conversions to a color of any color model. But I am no scientist and only have experience in different color models and behavior of colors in pragmatic applications, so my terminology is undoubtedly vague (e.g., I struggle to make difference of lightness/luminosity/luminance kinds of components L(ightness), B(rightness), V(alue), I(ntensity) or L* in systems like HSL, HLS, HSV/HSB/HSI, and L*a*b*), but I suppose they all separate light from color. CMYK as a subtractive system on a computer display is of course a kind of an abstraction anyway (as all CMYK values must be created in RGB), but also on print, mixed with other pigments, K assists in creating appearance of a color and is an important component in creation of color in printing process, but technically not itself a "color". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bruce Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 2 hours ago, thomaso said: Do we use the term "colour" differently? 2 hours ago, KarinC said: I will accept that. Even though I don't understand it. https://xkcd.com/1882/ thomaso and walt.farrell 2 Quote Mac Pro (Late 2013) Mac OS 12.7.4 Affinity Designer 2.4.1 | Affinity Photo 2.4.1 | Affinity Publisher 2.4.1 | Beta versions as they appear. I have never mastered color management, period, so I cannot help with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomaso Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 55 minutes ago, Old Bruce said: https://xkcd.com/1882/ It reminds me of the question of whether white paint (or milk) is black inside. NotMyFault 1 Quote macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarinC Posted February 8 Author Share Posted February 8 1 hour ago, Old Bruce said: https://xkcd.com/1882/ I was going to get some work done, but instead followed this link. Then I clicked next, then next, then next again and again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bruce Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 1 minute ago, KarinC said: I was going to get some work done, but instead followed this link. Then I clicked next, then next, then next again and again. Bookmark it, and get back to work. There are thousands of comics. Quote Mac Pro (Late 2013) Mac OS 12.7.4 Affinity Designer 2.4.1 | Affinity Photo 2.4.1 | Affinity Publisher 2.4.1 | Beta versions as they appear. I have never mastered color management, period, so I cannot help with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 27 minutes ago, KarinC said: I was going to get some work done, but instead followed this link. Then I clicked next, then next, then next again and again. Yay! A new XKCD fan! It's one of the 5 tabs that I open first each day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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