Default black, not black

[KarinC]

I just noticed this and wonder if I did something to cause this or if I can change it.

For all my swatches and if create a new one I have a default none, black, grey and white to the right side. However the black isn't black. Is there a reason for that?

 

[NotMyFault]

Which document color format and profile do you use?

[KarinC]

This is Designer. I guess I was using the default for cmyk

 

[NotMyFault]

Can you upload a test file showing the issue?
 

[NotMyFault]

Found older post, does it help?

 

[KarinC]

Okay.

 

blacktest.afdesign

[KarinC]

I noticed it in Publisher, too last summer. I had to change all of the text to pure black. I thought I had accidentally caused it. I don't know if pure black is okay or not. It went through KDP okay. 

Doesn't seem like the other thread had a reason for it. 

 

 

[NotMyFault]

So which black do you need? Please use CMYK color sliders, and no other like color wheel.

default swatch gives cmyk 0 0 0 100, but this will look dark brownish on display to simulate how it will look on paper

you may want rich black, then add other colors, e.g. 100 100 100 100, but that will normally exceed max tint limits of printers.

ask your printer what they expect.

[NotMyFault]

KPD seems to prefer RGB documents. Not an expert, YouTube is full of tutorials.

E.g. 

 

[KarinC]

Now I am sufficiently confused.

The cover of the book I submitted last fall and is in print, was in CMYK. I just found that, indeed, they don't support CMYK. The resulting colors on the cover look perfect. The text had illustrations in grayscale. 

My second book is mostly color illustrations and I've done about 15 in CMYK. I guess now I need to figure out how to change them all to RGB.

 

Edit: Kindle ebooks do not support CMYK. POD paperback books do. Whew!

Edited February 7, 2024 by KarinC
correction

[thomaso]

35 minutes ago, NotMyFault said:

default swatch gives cmyk 0 0 0 100, but this will look dark brownish on display to simulate how it will look on paper

you may want rich black, then add other colors, e.g. 100 100 100 100, but that will normally exceed max tint limits of printers.

0 0 0 100 is fine for text (to avoid 'flickering' or blurred text caused by additional ink colours). A "rich black" gets set up e.g. as 60 40 40 100 (with more cyan to compensate the brownish appearance of the black ink in Western CMYK (Eastern/Asian/Japanese inks may be slightly different)).
100 100 100 100 is only used for registration/print marks, to make sure they appear in each ink channel and don't get rasterized.

13 minutes ago, KarinC said:

My second book is mostly color illustrations and I've done about 15 in CMYK. I guess now I need to figure out how to change them all to RGB.

You don't need to convert the image files individually from CMYK to RGB but can use the document or the export colour space & profile setting instead.

(Generally there is no advantage to convert single image files to CMYK. They can get converted from RGB to CMYK in the layout document or on export. If you save images in a certain CMYK profile but need another profile for the layout print pdf then they get converted twice.)

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

 

[KarinC]

9 minutes ago, thomaso said:

 

(Generally there is no advantage to convert single image files to CMYK. They can get converted from RGB to CMYK in the layout document or on export. If you save images in a certain CMYK profile but need another profile for the layout print pdf then they get converted twice.)

Fortunately KDP requires images to be CMYK for print. RGB for ebooks.

"Image color, size, and quality. Images should be in CMYK color to ensure your cover looks good in print. All images should be sized at 100%, flattened to one layer, and placed in your document at a minimum resolution of 300 DPI (dots per inch)"

[thomaso]

2 minutes ago, KarinC said:

KDP requires images to be CMYK for print. RGB for ebooks.

I think they refer to the images inside a print pdf – not how the images have to be saved on disk before their use in a layout document. If your print layout is CMYK you can export a separate PDF in RGB.

[KarinC]

I am making full page illustrations which I export as a TIFF. Then placing them in Publisher.

Here is the issue.

The typeface I am using looks very washed out when I use the default black in CMYK.

If I make a black with the color wheel which I guess I shouldn't do it is better but maybe too dark. Not sure what to do.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[thomaso]

3 minutes ago, KarinC said:

Not sure what to do.

If I understand right this situation is slightly different to your questions & the answers above/before: While before the goal may be to maintain a certain colour definition when switching a profile or space (e.g. to print text with 100 K on white paper) or may concern the colour space of saved images, the illustration example that simulates 'ancient' typewriter text on an older paper appears to be more a matter of taste than a question of correct setting or conversion.

With other words: In this case use the colour as you like it visually, if saved as image file (tif) the text will be rasterized anyway and thus its initial '100 K' don't really matter. Personally I would use 100 K and maybe blend mode darken or multiply for this text. I agree, the upper, darker example looks less natural (not really typed on that sheet but added afterwards). Also note, the typewriter colour ribbons could vary in their black intensity and get more pale over time.
(I'd rather increase the leading for a 'real' typewriter impression)

[KarinC]

44 minutes ago, thomaso said:

If I understand right this situation is slightly different to your questions & the answers above/before: While before the goal may be to maintain a certain colour definition when switching a profile or space (e.g. to print text with 100 K on white paper) or may concern the colour space of saved images, the illustration example that simulates 'ancient' typewriter text on an older paper appears to be more a matter of taste than a question of correct setting or conversion.

With other words: In this case use the colour as you like it visually, if saved as image file (tif) the text will be rasterized anyway and thus its initial '100 K' don't really matter. Personally I would use 100 K and maybe blend mode darken or multiply for this text. I agree, the upper, darker example looks less natural (not really typed on that sheet but added afterwards). Also note, the typewriter colour ribbons could vary in their black intensity and get more pale over time.
(I'd rather increase the leading for a 'real' typewriter impression)

I was mostly confused about why default black wasn't black on the color wheel. Now I see that it is black on the slider.

I do increase the leading on the illustrations plus I get a nice effect if I give it a 0.1 pixel Gaussian blur.

Thanks everyone for your input.

[thomaso]

 

5 hours ago, KarinC said:

I was mostly confused about why default black wasn't black on the color wheel.

Just in case if it is still unclear (after @NotMyFault's + @lacerto's hints), below another interface view on the different blacks vs. wheel marker position with the reason that CMYK has 4 colour channels whereas RGB has one less and thus the possible maximum sum of values is different between CMYK (4x 100 = 400) and RGB (3x 100 = 300).

Accordingly the wheel does not reflect all these details, compare below the wheel, appearing identical for different CMYK values (72 68 67 88 vs. 100 100 100 100).

Nevertheless I am confused in your screenshot of the wheel about the reported  HSL 0 0 0  for the probably 100 K colour  – which conflicts with the wheel marker position. (and does not happen in my V1 examples above)

  … maybe @NotMyFault or @lacerto can shed some light on this?

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[thomaso]

4 hours ago, lacerto said:

I think that HSL 0, 0, 0 for C0M0Y0K100 just describes the situation of void of color.

There may be void of colour (H, S) but there is no void of light (L), right? … compared to rich black ( your 3rd sample) and/or HEX #0000.

Oddly even with your V1 .afpub I get a different result for HSL with 0 0 0 100 / Hex #231F20. – What HEX colour does the Colour Chooser window report to you for K 100?  [ Edit: possibly a mac/Windows issue? ]

(see also my various previous screenshots above, done with the default profile US Coated Web 2, too)

Edited February 8, 2024 by thomaso

[NotMyFault]

49 minutes ago, thomaso said:

ddly even with your V1 .afpub I get a different result for HSL with 0 0 0 100 / Hex #231F20. – What HEX colour does the Colour Chooser window report to you for K 100?  [ Edit: possibly a mac/Windows issue? ]

Probably an old bug in v1 (now fixed in v2). Conversions of colors between RGB/CMYK where inconsistent between pixel and vector objects.

depending on circumstances, color conversion between color panel, info panel, and colors for layers are wrong.

1. Create cmyk document
2. add pixel layer
3. add rectangle on top
4. group both 
5. assign black std switch to group

the pixel layer gets brownish black, the vector layer pure black.

never mix RGB/CMYK in one document (in affected versions up to v2.2)

[thomaso]

10 minutes ago, NotMyFault said:

Probably an old bug in v1

While lacertos screenshot shows V1 (like mine, both with no HEX field inside the Colours panel) we both get different HSL values reported for 0 0 0 100.

To me the L 13 appears more logical for 0 0 0 100 in an CMYK document than the L 0 in the OP's (V2) and lacerto's (V1) screenshots (while the wheel marker position seems to be placed more correctly = not at its maximum). – Thus I'd assume an issue rather in V2 than V1.

[KarinC]

It occurred to me in the middle of the night that the default black is really 86% gray. It is the same in Publisher.

The lower box of text is 100% gray. I wonder if there is a reason for that?

 

[lacerto]

Obsolete.