Naming new files.

[ShelleyH]

Hello.

This request comes from bouncing between Photoshop and Affinity photo. In Photoshop when you create a new file you can name the file at the same time, which is very convenient. In Affinity having every new file named 'Untitled' is a pain. I know I could 'save as' but, you know, workflow......

Please think about it....okay?

Ta.

[Pšenda]

6 hours ago, ShelleyH said:

Please think about it....okay?

I thought about it, and I say for myself - no thanks. I don't know why in this situation (creating a new document), the Save and SaveAs commands should do exactly the same thing, i.e. annoy and delay the user asking for the file/document name. If the default name "Untitled" does not suit me, then I use the standard SaveAs command and rename the document. If I need to quickly copy an image (for example, I create a document via the Clipboard), and then I need to save/write it to disk, then the name "Untitled" suits me, and therefore the Save query would only delay me. Regardless of the fact that it is an inconsistent behavior, because during Save
the application is not supposed to ask me anything. It could have a very unpleasant consequence for me - shut down the computer without saving the file.

[GarryP]

An extra text entry field in the New Document dialog, containing the filename – default as “Untitled” but modifiable if the user wants to – seems quite reasonable to me.

I imagine that it could be useful when I am experimenting with lots of temporary documents, most of which I don’t want to save, so I can give each one a name so that I don’t have a bunch of document tabs which is: “Untitled”, “Untitled”, “Untitled”, “Untitled”, etc. (See attached image.)

I’m not sure where the field could go in the dialog though, maybe in the Document Summary section.

(I think I’ve seen at last one similar request in the forums but I can’t be bothered to search for it.)

[PaulEC]

Another of those ideas that is fine, as long as it's an option and I don't have to name a file when I create it!

[GarryP]

Agreed.

Having the option to give new documents a name, if I want to, would be fine (unless I’m missing something important).

An alternative of mandatorily naming each document when I create each one could be quite annoying.

[Pšenda]

5 hours ago, GarryP said:

Having the option to give new documents a name, if I want to,

I think it would also be useful to be able to fill in some user fields when creating a new document - for example, the author's name (this could also be part of the template), document description, etc.

[GarryP]

That also sounds reasonable to me, along with, perhaps, document title which is something that I think has been requested a few times for PDF production, and maybe language to set the spelling options (but I’m not sure if that would work as I only use one language).

[carl123]

So, I give a document a name when I create it, do a lot of work, then save that document, get a message that states... "That file already exists".

I, on a deadline and without thinking, select "Yes" to overwrite it and loose a very important document with the same name 

Way too risky for me and inexperienced users may run into issues with it, losing/overwriting previous work in the process

 

[GarryP]

If you deliberately give the document a name when you create it, and then overwrite another file when you save it without checking, then that’s something you have done which you shouldn’t have done.

If you think that there could be a problem with doing this then just don’t give the document a specific name when you create it – it will default to “Untitled” – and the whole process will be as it is now.

Remember, we’re asking for this to be optional – at the user’s discretion – rather than mandatory.

There’s not much that the software can do when the user does things “without thinking”; the user must take at least some of the blame for the silly things they do.

(The scenario you describe already exists with the Save As functionality and I’ve not heard of anyone who wants to get rid of that because it might let them make a mistake.)

[Pšenda]

23 minutes ago, GarryP said:

There’s not much that the software can do when the user does things “without thinking”;

Software can help only by behaving the same/consistently under all circumstances and not forcing the user to make important/risky decisions when thinking about something completely different. I consider unnecessary inconsistency to be this suggested entry of the file name during Save, where the file name is never entered.

[carl123]

I'm talking about inexperienced users in my previous post

27 minutes ago, GarryP said:

(The scenario you describe already exists with the Save As functionality and I’ve not heard of anyone who wants to get rid of that because it might let them make a mistake.)

Save As is different, it implies you are saving to a different file name that the document currently has, so the warning would/could be expected

 

[GarryP]

My reading of what you wrote was that you thought it might be “risky” if the user – inexperienced or otherwise – could accidentally overwrite an existing document, and my response was that this can already happen with both Save and Save As.

If the user isn’t thinking about what they are doing then they’ll probably get into all kinds of trouble, but that’s no reason not to allow users to do things that they might want to do.

The point that I’m trying to get across is that this proposal, as far as naming documents is concerned, from my point of view at least, is that the user is given the option to change the name of the document from “Untitled” to something else at the point where the document is created.

No other changes to any processes or workflows are necessary; both Save and Save As, and all other functionalities, would work exactly as they do now.

If you don’t want to give a different name when creating the document then you can totally ignore that field – leaving it as “Untitled” – and just get on with things as they are now with no extra “risk”.

At the moment we can only give a new document a name when it is first saved.
Under this proposal, all that would happen is that the name of the document could be given either when the document is created, or when saved (or both if the user changes their mind between creation and saving).

There’s no extra “risk” unless the user deliberately makes it “risky”, and if they are deliberately going out of their way to make it more “risky” for themselves then that’s their problem.

[carl123]

Software design should minimise the risks involved in its usage

When you save an untitled document, you are presented with the screen to name that document

Adding an option to pre-name your document just adds another layer of risk in overwriting an existing document and adds no benefit to workflow as cited by the OP. The workflow is the same time wise, it's just the risks that are different

It's like the decision to have Hardware Acceleration on as the default. How many users have had their documents crash and lost work because of this being enabled. Only to have to be told to disable it by other users (and even support staff) to stop losing their work. Like it was somehow their mistake to trust the software to make the right decision for them, when we all know hardware acceleration can make you lose a lot of work if it is incompatible with your computer configuration.

Serif even disabled this setting for all AMD graphic cards in the early days as they knew there was a particular problem with them but then reenabled it (as the default!) even knowing it would still cause crashes on some devices.

Software changes that introduce another level of risk need to be evaluated carefully and not just willy-nilly to appease someone that previously used Photoshop or some other software.

 

1. Customer Service: How can I help you

2. User: I just opened an old document from last month and it now looks like a document I created yesterday.

3. Customer Service: Did the two documents have the same document name?

4. User: Yes, they did

5. Customer Service: Looks like you used our new supa dupa ability to name your document when you created it, not when you first saved it, like you were previously used to doing. You must have misunderstood the warning telling you were going to overwrite a previous document not the one you specifically named at the time you created it

6. User: WTF. How do I recover from this mess. I need that old document back now!

7. Customer Service: The only way is to restore it from a backup. If you don't have a backup then I'm afraid you are totally and utterly screwed.

8. User: I am going to lose my job over this!

9. Customer Service: Not my problem pal, we introduced that option to save you 0.002 seconds in your workflow. It's not our fault if you just blindly accept the inherent risks involved when you use our software....... Is there anything else I can help you with today?

10. User: Yes, sometimes when working on documents they crash and I lose all my work

11. Customer Service: Sir, just switch off the Hardware Acceleration option we enable by default - for Christ's sake don't you users know anything
 

[GarryP]

There’s no extra “risk” involved.

If you name the document when you create it, when you come to save it you will be given the same Save dialog as normal but all that is different is that the name will be ‘pre-filled’ for you from the name you supplied instead of it being “Untitled”. What you do once you get the Save dialog is entirely up to you.

Whether you name the document when you create it or whether you name the document when you save it you will still get the same dialogs, and the same options, and the same choices, and the same "risks" as now.

More choice; No extra “risk”; If you don’t want to add any perceived “risk” then just don’t name things when you make them; That’s all there is to it.

I really don’t know how to explain this any better than I have already done so.

[carl123]

When I save an untitled document. I immediately know I am saving it for the first time and "have" to give it a name

Currently, when I "save" a document that already has a name and are presented with that name in the save dialog screen I immediate think I must have accidentally hit the Save As... menu option rather than just Save (because they are next to each other in the menu) so I just continue to save it.

 

12 minutes ago, GarryP said:

Whether you name the document when you create it or whether you name the document when you save it you will still get the same dialogs, and the same options, and the same choices,

If I am going to be presented with the same dialogs, and the same options, and the same choices, therein lies the risk that I could accidently overwrite an old document by mistake by assuming I hit Save As... and not just Save, when in fact I had named the document with the same name as another document when I created it

 

14 minutes ago, GarryP said:

I really don’t know how to explain this any better than I have already done so.

 I know.

[GarryP]

It seems like we have opposing views which can’t be reconciled so I’m prepared to end this discussion and ‘agree to disagree’ before it turns into nothing more than a ‘shouting match’.

-----

@ShelleyH This sort of ‘back and forth’ discussion/argument goes on all the time in these forums. People have different ideas about what’s ‘best’ and sometimes those differences cannot be resolved in any meaningful way.

In the end it doesn’t really matter what is discussed between forum members here as Serif have the final say about what they want to do with their software. If they think your suggestion a good idea then they may implement it no matter what any forum member thinks, or they may decide to not implement it no matter what any forum member thinks.

Serif often listen to what we users say but we don’t have any real agency in what happens, so please don’t let any ‘heated discussions’ deter you from making further suggestions. As to what happens with the software, the only opinions that really matter are those of the Serif staff - it's their party and they choose the music.

[carl123]

9 minutes ago, GarryP said:

the only opinions that really matter are those of the Serif staff - it's their party and they choose the music.

In business, the only opinions that really matter are those of your target audience. For a successful party you have to play the sort of music your guests like, or they won't come back

And if you don't like the music they are playing, you need to tell them

Like the Pixel Grid Blues saga....

...they implemented it, we didn't like it, we said so, they changed it back.

So, now we are all back chilling out with the Classical grid we all knew and loved.

 

[loukash]

On 11/17/2023 at 7:06 PM, ShelleyH said:

In Photoshop when you create a new file you can name the file at the same time, which is very convenient.

I agree.
The emphasis here is on "you can".