Single Page Publisher Documents Don't Automatically Take on Master Page Formatting

[Hangman]

Single-page Publisher documents don't automatically take on Master Page formatting... Again, I'm unsure if this is by design or a bug.

Scenario 1

1. Create a new one-page, facing-page document starting on either the left or right using the default master
2. Add a text frame to both the left and right master pages and link the two frames
3. Format the linked Master page text frames with text style
4. The Master page formatting is ignored by the single page even if the Master is re-applied to the page

Scenario 2

1. Create a new two-page, facing-page document starting on either the left or right using the default master
2. Add a text frame to both the left and right master pages and link the two frames
3. Format the linked Master page text frames with text style
4. The Master page formatting is recognised by both pages

 

[MikeTO]

18 minutes ago, Hangman said:

Scenario 1

1. Create a new one-page, facing-page document starting on either the left or right using the default master
2. Add a text frame to both the left and right master pages and link the two frames
3. Format the linked Master page text frames with text style
4. The Master page formatting is ignored by the single page even if the Master is re-applied to the page

I get the same results for both scenarios and only have a problem with it starting on the right - is it possible the frames weren't linked when you tested scenario 2?

There is a bug here and the key is a frame linked from a frame on the left side but there is no left side. This test document illustrates the issue. All frames are on the master layer and are set to Heading 1. The top frame on page 1 isn't linked and shows as Heading 1. The middle frame is linked to another frame on the same side and shows as Heading 1. The bottom frame is linked from the left page that doesn't exist and shows as No Style.

test.afpub

I couldn't duplicate any issues with a facing pages document starting on the left because the first frame in the linked pair was on the left side now.

test - left.afpub

[Hangman]

Scenario 1I realised my original description was slightly incorrect in as much as it should have said:

Scenario 1

1. Create a new one or two-page, facing-page document starting on the right using the default master
2. Add a text frame to both the left and right master pages and link the two frames
3. Format the linked Master page text frames using a text style
4. The Master page formatting is ignored for both page 1 and page 2 and is only applied to the first full spread, i.e., when creating a three page, facing page document starting on the right

Scenario 2

1. Create a new two-page, facing-page document starting on the left using the default master
2. Add a text frame to both the left and right master pages and link the two frames
3. Format the linked Master page text frames using a text style
4. The Master page formatting is recognised by both pages

So yes, when starting with a RH facing page the issue is that Master Page formatting is only applied to the first full spread but is then subsequently applied to both individual pages and spreads despite being ignored on the first two pages even though the first two pages have the Master page applied...

Reapplying the Master page by dragging it onto page 1 and/or page 2 doesn't apply the Master page formatting. The only was it can seemingly be applied is to right click, select Apply Master and then either:

• Uncheck 'Replace existing' or
• With 'Replace existing' selected, Clear the content selecting any of the relevant options from the list

  Scenario 1

[Old Bruce]

23 hours ago, Hangman said:

3. Format the linked Master page text frames with text style

Text takes Text Styles. Text Frames do not take Text Styles. 

[Hangman]

1 hour ago, Old Bruce said:

Text takes Text Styles. Text Frames do not take Text Styles.

You can still apply a text style to a text frame on the Master pages without any physical text present... the point is that the Master page text style formatting isn't being applied to the first two pages of a right-hand facing page document, it's only applied automatically on the first instance of a full spread and to subsequent pages which means if you create a new right-hand facing page document containing:

• One page - Page 1 doesn't adopt the formatting of the Master page despite the Master being applied to the page.
• Two pages - Pages 1 and 2 don't adopt the formatting of the Master page despite the Master being applied to both pages.
• Three pages - Page 1 doesn't adopt the formatting of the Master page but pages 2 and 3 do.
• Four pages - Page 1 doesn't adopt the formatting of the Master page, but pages 2, 3 and 4 do despite Page 4 not being linked to Page 3.

So basically any new pages added after the Master Pages are formatted adopt the text styling, those created before don't, yet pages created before before the Master Page formatting will automatically adopt any other changes made to the Master, e.g., the addition of page numbers.

The question here (for me at least) is should pages created prior to the Master Page text frame formatting update all pages where that Master is applied in the same way it does for pages created after the Master page is formatted?

 

[Old Bruce]

The video shows that the Left Master Page's Text frame has the text cursor in it when the Story Copy text style is applied. There is no text cursor in the Right Master Page's Text Frame so no application of a text style takes place. The Text Style Story Copy is applied to the text cursor on the Left Page, no text cursor in the Right Page's text frame means no Text Style is applied.

I will repeat myself: 

Text takes Text Styles. Text Frames do not take Text Styles. 

[Hangman]

21 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

The video shows that the Left Master Page's Text frame has the text cursor in it when the Story Copy text style is applied. There is no text cursor in the Right Master Page's Text Frame so no application of a text style takes place.

By virtue of the fact that the left and right Master Page text frames are linked, the text styling applied is adopted by both frames but for the avoidance of doubt, I've updated the screen recording to demonstrate...

23 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

Text takes Text Styles. Text Frames do not take Text Styles.

This misses the point, if that were the case then when initially creating a three-page document the text styling wouldn't be automatically applied to pages two and three.

[Old Bruce]

10 minutes ago, Hangman said:

... for the avoidance of doubt, I've updated the screen recording to demonstrate...

Please note that when you paste the text into Page 1 you have something other than Story Copy chosen in the Text Styles panel. Then when you paste the text into Pages 2 and 3 you do have Story Copy chosen in the Text Styles panel. As far as my memory can be trusted I noticed the same thing in the video you have replaced.

For completenesses sake what happens if you link page 1's Text Frame to page 2's text frame and then paste test into the now flowing three pages? Being sure to replicate the Story Copy paragraph style not being selected when you paste into page 1.

[Hangman]

3 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

Please note that when you paste the text into Page 1 you have something other than Story Copy chosen in the Text Styles panel. Then when you paste the text into Pages 2 and 3 you do have Story Copy chosen in the Text Styles panel. As far as my memory can be trusted I noticed the same thing in the video you have replaced.

This really only goes to highlight my point... the text is inserted using 'Text > Insert Filler Text'... the reason the text frame on page 1 has 'No Style' selected is for the exact same reason, it's not adopting the text style from the Master page that is applied to it but the text frames on pages 2 and 3 are. All three pages use the same Master Page.

11 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

For completenesses sake what happens if you link page 1's Text Frame to page 2's text frame and then paste test into the now flowing three pages? Being sure to replicate the Story Copy paragraph style not being selected when you paste into page 1.

Then, as expected, the inserted text across all three pages adopts the style from Page 1 which hasn't adopted the text style from the Master Pages...

I don't know if this is the expected behaviour or if my expectations are simply wrong here (if the former that's fine and just means I need to adapt my workflow)... it would certainly be interesting to understand how InDesign approaches this and whether you see the same results...

[Old Bruce]

19 minutes ago, Hangman said:

I don't know if this is the expected behaviour or if my expectations are simply wrong here (if the former that's fine and just means I need to adapt my workflow)... it would certainly be interesting to understand how InDesign approaches this and whether you see the same results...

With all due respect I believe that your expectations are wrong. As far as adapting your workflow just keep repeating to yourself Text has Text Styles, Text Frames do not have Text Styles. And choose the desired Paragraph Style before pasting or placing or inserting text. Far fewer surprises will result.

I haven't used InDesign for years (maybe CS5) so I have no idea how it works now and I have forgotten how it worked back before the CC was introduced.

[Hangman]

3 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

With all due respect I believe that your expectations are wrong.

Quite possibly...

3 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

As far as adapting your workflow just keep repeating to yourself Text has Text Styles, Text Frames do not have Text Styles. And choose the desired Paragraph Style before pasting or placing or inserting text. Far fewer surprises will result.

Apologies but your logic here doesn't make sense... please apply the same logic to a newly created, right-facing three-page document and then explain why the Master page formatting is applied to pages 2 and 3 but isn't applied to page 1.

If it is expected behaviour then fine but it makes little sense other than for reasons discussed above relating to spreads with left linking pages...

I no longer have access to InDesign so I can't test this and can't recall how it behaves either but I'm sure somebody else can...

[Old Bruce]

24 minutes ago, Hangman said:

Apologies but your logic here doesn't make sense... please apply the same logic to a newly created, right-facing three-page document and then explain why the Master page formatting is applied to pages 2 and 3 but isn't applied to page 1.

See my remark about linking the Text frames from page 1 to page 2. In other words, Page 1's text frame has no "Assigned" Paragraph Style.

I really must stress that the apparent formatting of the Text Frame on pages 2 and 3's text frames is just that, apparent. It is the caret with the Selected Paragraph Style in the Paragraph Styles panel that is determining the Paragraph style of the inserted text. Not the apparent application of a Text Style to a Text Frame on a Master or Actual page.

Text takes on Text Styles, Text Frames do not. It may appear to be so but that is not what is happening. The Text has the Styles, not the Text Frame. 

It is similar to how in the morning the ringing of my alarm-clock causes the sun to rise. It only appears to cause the sun to rise.

[Hangman]

Approaching in a slightly different way...

Scenario 1

• Create a new right-hand facing three-page document using the default Master (Master A)
• Add text frames to the left and right Master pages and link the two frames
• Apply a text style to the Master text frames which is adopted by both the left and right Master frames (as shown in a previous post)
• Select pages one to three and drag Master A over the selected pages to reapply Master A to pages one to three
• Select the text frame on page one and Insert Filler text - this doesn't populate the text frame on page one with the text style used on Master A
• Select the text frame on page two and insert Filler Text - this does populate the linked text frames on pages two and three with the text style used on Master A

Scenario 2

• Create a new right-hand facing three-page document with no default Master
• Add a new Facing Master Page from the Master Pages Panel (Master A)
• Add text frames to the left and right Master pages and link the two frames
• Apply a text style to the Master text frames which is adopted by both the left and right Master frames (as shown in a previous post)
• Select pages one to three and drag Master A over the selected pages to apply Master A to pages one to three
• Select the text frame on page one and Insert Filler text - this does populate the text frame on page one with the text style used on Master A
• Select the text frame on page two and insert Filler Text - this does populate the linked text frames on pages two and three with the text style used on Master A

[Return]

I tried this on windows in beta 2005 and is this what you want to see?
 

 

 

[Hangman]

Interesting, so the subtle difference here is that you've applied a text style to the left master frame prior to duplicating and/or linking the left text frame to the right text frame as opposed to linking the two text frames before applying a text style despite no text being involved!

This does indeed work though perhaps leaves a few things unexplained (e.g., scenario 2 in my previous post) but thank you...

[Hangman]

@Return, out of interest, if you replicate the steps in Scenario 1 above exactly on Windows, as in, create the left and right text frames on the master page prior to linking them and applying a text style, do you see the same result when inserting filler text on page 1 as well as pages 2 and 3?

[Return]

24 minutes ago, Hangman said:

@Return, out of interest, if you replicate the steps in Scenario 1 above exactly on Windows, as in, create the left and right text frames on the master page prior to linking them and applying a text style, do you see the same result when inserting filler text on page 1 as well as pages 2 and 3?

It is working on and off.

37 minutes ago, Hangman said:

Interesting, so the subtle difference here is that you've applied a text style to the left master frame prior to duplicating and/or linking the left text frame to the right text frame as opposed to linking the two text frames before applying a text style.

To store a font or style I rather use an asset of the textframe and apply that to the masterpage>link and apply it to the pages.
And mostly I don't use spreads at all but single pages.
If I use spreads I would use single masterpages; one for left and one for right and only link on normal pages.

 

 

[Hangman]

@Return, thanks for the additional testing and feedback…

3 minutes ago, Return said:

It is working on and off.

Okay, on and off sounds slightly odd, would you perhaps be kind enough to make a screen recording so we can see what you’re seeing on Windows following the same scenario 1 steps. Basically I’d like to be able to ascertain whether this could be a Mac specific bug…

6 minutes ago, Return said:

To store a font or style I rather use an asset of the textframe and apply that to the masterpage>link and apply it to the pages.
And mostly I don't use spread at all but single pages.
If I use spreads I would use single masterpages; one for left and one for right and only link on normal pages.

While using single pages can work in certain circumstances it can equally cause issues in other situations such as inserting single pages into a multi master facing page document… That’s not to say the approach is a bad one more just to highlight other implications I’ve found when testing the use of single page master pages in facing page documents though the approach sounds as though it’s working well for you 😊

[Return]

 

 

[Hangman]

@Return, perfect, thank you, so we are seeing the same behaviour on Mac and Windows re Scenario 1 though in light of Scenario 2, I'm still trying to work out whether this is expected behaviour or a bug...

In all fairness, the help section does state the following...

Applying master pages

Just like publication pages, master pages can be a single page or two-page spread equally, and can be assigned to equivalent publication pages or spreads.

 

However, if I've interpreted this correctly it may explain Scenario 1 but it would then appear to contradict Scenario 2. Hopefully, someone from the moderation team can provide some clarification...

[NathanC]

Hi @Hangman,

Sorry for the late reply on this, Could scenario 1's result perhaps be explained by the fact that the action of linking the two text frames on Master A causes any single facing pages to become detached from the master?

For example, If I start with a default facing page Master applied to my four page document, If I add two text frames to the left and right hand sides and don't link them together, Page 1 (set to start on the right) indicates in the layers panel that the text frame is still attached, so any changes I make to the font, formatting etc. on Master A are automatically inherited from the master on that singular page. On Page 1, the text frame is still attached is indicated by the solid green line in the layers panel.

Back on Master A, If I then Link the left and right text frames together and then switch back to Page 1, this action has automatically detached Page 1's text frame from Master A, since it's a singular page which can't be linked to a text frame that doesn't exist on the page. The detachment is indicated by the green dotted line, and as such, any further formatting changes on the text frame on Master A are ignored.

If I were to assign my text formatting first before linking the two master page text frames together, this works as Page 1 already inherited the formatting before the link and detachment had happened. 

-----------

However, when running through Scenario 2 I noted that after linking and formatting the text frames and applying it to Page 1 (or all pages) I did note that the text frame on Page 1 was still attached to Master A despite the two frames being linked on the Master... this may be the result of the detachment action in Scenario 1 never taking place since the Master A frame is being applied as a completely new object to the page, and therefore there was no opportunity for it to automatically unlink and detach itself.

[Hangman]

Hi @NathanC,

Many thanks for your reply...

What you say makes perfect sense though I think I would still question whether the actual behaviour is correct or even logical since, as you've seen with scenario 2, it is perfectly possible for Master A to remain attached to a right or left-hand facing page either 'after' applying or by 're-applying' the same Master to Page 1 (and Page 4 if using an even number of facing pages).

My thought here is that this should logically be the default status rather than having to re-apply the existing Master to individual Left or Right-hand facing pages when the obvious intent is to use linked text frames throughout the document based on a Master page...

Current Individual Default Recto and Verso | Logical Individual Default Recto | Logical Individual Default Verso | Current Spread

Out of interest, how does InDesign handle this situation, does it mirror Publisher or does it follow the logic shown above? I suspect that will likely be a determining factor in terms of whether the current behaviour is by design or not.

[NathanC]

43 minutes ago, Hangman said:

Out of interest, how does InDesign handle this situation, does it mirror Publisher or does it follow the logic shown above? I suspect that will likely be a determining factor in terms of whether the current behaviour is by design or not.

I don't think InDesign is the best point of comparison in this regard (though I could be wrong) as there appears to be some fundamental differences between how inDesign handles parent pages applied to live pages compared to Publisher.

In regards to it's current behaviour in Publisher I'll get a second opinion on the current logic and get back to you.

 

[Hangman]

5 minutes ago, NathanC said:

In regards to it's current behaviour in Publisher I'll get a second opinion on the current logic and get back to you.

That's perfect thank you...

I can't really think of any practical or logical reason for the current behaviour, more so when we've demonstrated that it is already possible to keep the Master page attached to individual facing pages when re-applying the Master as it just adds additional and arguably unnecessary steps to creating a facing page document but certainly interested to hear any second opinions or use cases where the current behaviour makes practical sense...

[NathanC]

Hi @Hangman,

Following a discussion internally the aforementioned behaviour i've described in scenario 1 is the expected behaviour as it currently stands. However, I agree that based on the fact you've demonstrated it is possible to keep the individual facing page frame still linked that the current logic should be changed to avoid unnecessary steps/workarounds so I've gone ahead and logged this as an improvement with the developers.