CMYK in Affinity designer does not match what is shown online which then makes it very difficult to match PMS

[matt0810]

CMYK in Affinity designer does not match what is shown online which then makes it very difficult to match PMS.

 

I have attached a screen shot of affinity and a screen shot of what is online which comes from the same screen output.....so why are they completely different?

Trying to match CMYK to PMS but impossible and not sure what colour is correct, when entering a CMYK colour into online PMS conversion tool as they are showing completely different CMYK colours.

[walt.farrell]

Also, you should probably use JPG or TIFF to show CMYK colors, as PNG only supports RGB and Grayscale. So when you use PNG there will be additional color profile format and profile conversions happening.

[matt0810]

Thank you for the suggestion...but makes no difference I screen shot the actual working file and online example.....so true colours to what I see.....still do not understand why the extreme difference..? I have been doing artwork for 20 years and never seen this issue....can anyone help?

[matt0810]

Yes, exactly.....so do you know why the visual result of CMYK online is completely different to the one in Affinity?

[matt0810]

That makes sense......thank you for the reply..

[matt0810]

Yes ....I do have a PMS book but was just confused as to why the screen colours were completely different to the colour shown in affinity which is now clear to me thanks to the replies. Thanks for your response and clarification.

[thomaso]

What a weird tool. It appears to display HSL / RGB colours only, unable for CMYK colour appearance.

[lacerto]

7 hours ago, Red Sands said:

Browsers are not colour managed and are made for the screen's preferred colour space (sRGB), so it's close to the worst place to validate colours for print.

Most modern web browsers are color managed, in some, like Fireworksfox, you need to turn it on (to make it do more than just assume sRGB). 

You can test if yours is by visiting

https://cameratico.com/tools/web-browser-color-management-test/

On OS filesystem level the situation is as you described, but that has nothing to do with color values shown correctly or incorrectly on a web-based service. Technically they could be accurate, but most often they are not, but instead display color conversions based on abstract formulas without applying any kind of profile-based color management, and should in general be avoided.

[lacerto]

13 hours ago, matt0810 said:

Trying to match CMYK to PMS but impossible and not sure what colour is correct, when entering a CMYK colour into online PMS conversion tool as they are showing completely different CMYK colours.

If you use PMS to refer to PANTONE special inks, you should understand that whenever you have Affinity apps, their display of PANTONE inks is limited in more than one way. First, Affinity-based PANTONE rendering colors are defined in sRGB color space (rather than profile independent LAB), so their rendering is already artificially restricted so even if the hardware and current document color mode allowed display of full PMS color gamut, the library limitation would not permit it. Second (and worst), when you have Affinity document in CMYK color mode, all colors, including PANTONE special inks, are rendered to simulate the document CMYK target, and would typically show more desaturated than when printed on paper.

If you have printed swatches, you should use them as a reference, especially in lack of software that can simulate more realistically the gamut of special inks. 

Comparison of rendering of the same PANTONE Coated special ink in InDesign (where PANTONE rendering colors have been specified in color-profile independent LAB color model), and Affinity Publisher, where the rendering colors have been specified in sRGB, and where the document color mode further determines the appearance of these colors [Note that the forum limits the color space to sRGB, but the screenshot gives an idea of relative differences]: 

Having said that, a web service that show "CMYK-equivalents" of PANTONE special inks (obviously without any color management), is the least trustful reference of what PANTONE inks are going to look on paper.  

 

[debraspicher]

I am on a color-managed system with custom profiles. My swatches share the same disparity identical to OP's when inputting the CMYK formula into Affinity and in the web "convertor".

Color management in web browsers is very complicated anyway and because browsers largely target RGB color spaces (read: screens), it's largely unconcerned with displaying profiles for print and thus, unreliable. *If you are testing CMYK imagery in a browser and want to check if your browser supports, then scroll down in this post to where it says "Extra Info".

Back to web convertors... Color management wouldn't apply in the case of the convertor @Red Sands linked, because the values being generated from it are set in RGB... (see background-color in the bottom right). There is nothing to color manage.



I don't have Adobe so I can't compare how the 76, 5, 25, 5 CMYK formula would look on it. I can only concur how the mixture appears in Designer.

Anyway, I remembered I have VectorStyler's trial installed on my machine. This is how the same formula is displayed under a CMYK profile (Whatever their "Default CMYK" profile is... couldn't find it):

Vector Styler:


vs

Designer:


Like others have iterated, I would distrust a web convertor and always check with an official book.


Extra Info:

Somewhat unrelated to the above Web Convertor vs Designer color discussion... Browser support for CMYK imagery is iffy.

On my machine, FF Developer edition (its build is based on current betas), does not support CMYK profiles (on the left)... but my currently installed version of Chrome does (on the right):


You can check some of your browser's color management by opening this page in it below:
https://chromachecker.com/info/en/page/webbrowser

*Keep in mind there are different versions of ICC system profiles such as v2, v4 which can impact browser/OS support.

[v_kyr]

34 minutes ago, Red Sands said:

Browsers do support color profiles embedded in images and also "corrects" RGB values for HTML elements according to the monitor profile...

The whole is highly Webbrowser and it's prefs settings dependent, as some Webbrowsers do have as defaults (in their settings) general color management options disabled, or only have as default enabled to handle just tagged images (those with embedded ICC profiles). - Also some Webbrowsers have still their problems with color management especially under the latest MacOS versions here.

Most of these Webbrowser issues are known for longer time, but do pop up again and again in certain version builds (...similar as long time issues in Affinity). A good example here is the Firefox webbrowser.

• ICC correction in FF
• FF - Support CMYK images  (old bug which sometimes pops there again up)
• Mozilla's Bugzilla & CMYK
• Color Management for Creators - Web Browser Edition
• Color Management for your Web Browsers
• ... etc. ...

 

 

 

[matt0810]

Thanks for the replies as i received more than expected and appreciate the input as this has clarified the issue.

[lacerto]

Here is yet another take on color management within a browser based color matching, palette creation and conversion utility. PANTONE Connect is a web-based service, whether as accessed from within Photoshop (or alike) as a plug-in, or used independently with a supported browser. The web app is more limited than e.g. former PANTONE Color Manager based utility that allowed profile based conversions (but IMO less accurately than doing the same e.g. within Adobe apps). But considering decreased printing needs with special inks, and modern late-bound production workflows (based on LAB based rendering of colors and RIP-produced conversions), combined with ISO workflows, need for profile-based accurate CMYK conversions is not as critical as it used to be.

But the point is that there is basically no such thing as "CMYK colors" in display (RGB-based) environment, so whether CMYK definitions and profiles are supported at "browser-level" (or even at framework or OS level) is not necessarily the key question. Color management in a professional app is ultimately something that must be fully controllable at app-level, so the knowledge and logic needs to be enclosed and developed into the app itself. Rendering and conversions can be accurate even without dependence on "native" OS / framework / library based support (like within Adobe environment where Windows users by default use Adobe ACE based color engine and color management, instead of using Microsoft ICM based technology). The results are often a bit different, depending on the chosen technology. As mentioned, conversion values were different also when using the now legacy PANTONE Color Manager with user-specified profile and lighting environment.

a) Photoshop CMYK document in US Web Coated v2 color space, C76 M5 Y25 K5 entered and matching special ink searched from within PANTONE Solid Coated v5 library (a different special ink might be found as the best match if using e.g. newsprint profiles, but then again, bright special inks would be an odd choice in such production conditions). The small swatches show PANTONE Connect suggested closest PANTONE Library matches within Photoshop: 7110 C (in Formula Guide Coated), 3123 CP, and 7110 CP (in Color Bridge Coated), and  P 121-7 C (in CMYK Coated). 

 

b) The closest matches in Formula Guide using PANTONE Connect web service:

"CMYK-equivalent" values of special inks are not shown in full color data, which is probably just wise because of gamut differences and lack of profile based matching. CMYK values however are shown when using Cross-Reference search within process-color based PANTONE libraries, e.g. below are the color details for 7710 CP:

It cannot be readily seen which profile is used for the CMYK values, and I have not found any documentation that explains the conversion, but so much is clear that colors are rendered differently within browser and Photoshop with a CMYK-based document open (I tried most common profiles to check if there is a clear best match, but without success). Especially 3123 CP (the closest process-color match that PANTONE Connect suggested for special ink 7110 C) looked pretty much different in Photoshop and within browser (where the colors were close enough). In terms of color accuracy in print production it is obvious that process colors should be evaluated and matched somewhere else than within a browser, even when using utility like PANTONE Connect.

On the other hand, PANTONE Connect (still very much an app in development, and with many usability flaws) shows that there is no fundamental reason why a browser-based app could not be used for color conversions and rendering CMYK-based color values (like those in PANTONE's own CMYK based libraries), even if there is no native (browser-based) CMYK support. It is clearly on a different level when compared to free web-based color conversion utilities. When using modern bright and wide-gamut displays it is most important to be able to handle RGB values properly in the context of the monitor color gamut. If that is not controlled, everything else (like CMYK color rendering) naturally fails badly, as well (even if color values expressed were based on actual knowledge and experience, and production specs explicitly stated).

UPDATE: As a real-time matching utility PANTONE Connect is more or less useless since its value-based (ad-hoc) color rendering is more or less horrible in all "supported" color models. This can clearly be seen above where the user-entered CMYK value is rendered and then "matched" against found library colors (whether process colors or special inks). The real-time rendered color is as bad as in any non-color managed web app, even when rendering user-defined sRGB values (on a wide-gamut display), but the found matches at least provide a clue on how the found library colors look like in color-managed environment and which one is the best match of the defined color... All in all, the utility has well deserved its one star rating in Adobe Plug-in collection. 

[henryanthony]

Please have a look at this to either confirm or refute my conclusion.

Seems that the color conversions in the color picker in both Design and Photo version 1 are in error regarding the HSL translation of CMYK 76, 5, 25, 5.

The file attached, colortest.html can be opened in a web browser and shows an error with the HSL translation of the CMYK color. I have also attached an image of the HTML file in case  you would rather not download the file. 

colortest.html

[lacerto]

Please note that conversions are dependent on the source and target profiles. 

My CMYK source was ISO Coated v2 and target sRGB, and I got the following (tested v2 Affinity apps):

<html>
<h1 style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);">CMYK 76, 5, 25, 5 Conversions to RGB, RGB Hex and HSL as copied from AD and AP Version 18:22 AM 6/6/2023</h1>
<h1 style="background-color:rgb(0, 166, 185);">rgb(0, 166, 185)</h1>
<h1 style="background-color:#00A6B9;">#00A6B9</h1>
<h1 style="background-color:hsl(186, 100%, 36%);">hsl(186, 100%, 36%)</h1>
</html>

 

[Tea2]

I'll jump in on this one: I've noticed Affinity Photo is over-saturated since updating to the new version. My work is highly color-sensitive and, as of now, I can't use Affinity for color work. My monitor is calibrated. Attached is a photo showing the same color (#c16f2f) in (right to left): Google Chrome, Affinity Photo 2.1, and Adobe. All sRGB color spaces... Affinity is obviously WAY off. 

[henryanthony]

@lacerto Interesting. I understand what you are saying but, have to take your word for it because I cannot set CMYK source to ISO Coated v2 and target sRGB. Seems V1 won't allow it as far as I know. Be advised I have a lot to learn regarding Affinity. I use only a small percentage of the capabilities.

[lacerto]

1 hour ago, henryanthony said:

Interesting. I understand what you are saying but, have to take your word for it because I cannot set CMYK source to ISO Coated v2 and target sRGB. Seems V1 won't allow it as far as I know. Be advised I have a lot to learn regarding Affinity. I use only a small percentage of the capabilities.

The specific CMYK and RGB color profile pair that you have effective in the document is not important -- I was just mentioning the ones I had active because the values are different from yours. It seems you have the Affinity default CMYK and sRGB profiles (US Web Coated V2 and sRGB) effective in your document. It just seems that something went wrong when you converted the CMYK values to HSL. The other two conversions (to RGB and RGB Hex) are correct.

See the video below. The easiest method to have colors converted is to turn off the lock in the Color panel and just switch the color model while having the object to be converted selected:

Note how the document is created by using US Coated Web v2 as the CMYK profile, just to demonstrate the conversion values from that profile to the default sRGB profile (resulting in values that you have in your document, except for HSL conversion which had failed in your document). After that the document color mode is switched to RGB (using sRGB profile), to demonstrate that the color values and visual appearance stay the same (the visual appearance could change, if the sRGB profile cannot produce the defined CMYK values, but in this case it can). After that, the document color mode is switched back to CMYK and then the CMYK color profile is changed from US Web Coated v2 to ISO Coated V2 (by using "Assign" option so that the existing color values are not changed). Finally the CMYK value C76 M5 Y25 K5 is converted to RGB, RGB Hex and HSL to demonstrate how the conversion values are slightly different because the CMYK source profile is now different.

When an Affinity document is created, it gets its active and latent color profiles assigned according to settings specified in Preferences > Color. These profiles determine how colors are converted from one color space to another, when using the Color panel. The assigned color profiles can be changed either by assignment or conversion via File > Document > Color (or Document > Convert Format / ICC Profile and Document > Assign ICC Profile commands in Photo) so that subsequent color conversion use a different source and destination profiles. It is a good idea to keep the lock of the Color panel turned on (the default setting), to avoid inadvertent color conversions, and have it unlocked only when actually wanting to convert colors (or temporarily checking the actual definition an object has). When the lock is turned on, switching the color model within the Color Panel will just show the color values in different color spaces without changing the selected objects' actual definitions. 

[henryanthony]

@lacerto Thanks for the detailed explanation. I will work through and try to figure out your advice.