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27 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Same for any prediction about how a device that is at least 6 months from its final version will perform out in the wild vs. in Apple's carefully controlled environment.

Apple is pretty good in this discipline, think of when the iPhone and Apple Watch etc. were first time presented to the world and which status they have nowadays with those devices! - Things evolve and that Vision Pro device will be for sure no exception here, especially as Tim Cook want's that device have pushed as his important baby, like Steve did before with other Apple products. - Do you really think that Apple is leaving something to chance here?  - Look back at how they tend to achieve their goals.

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8 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

Apple is pretty good in this discipline, think of when the iPhone and Apple Watch etc. were first time presented to the world and which status they have nowadays with those devices!

Think of all the things that they have promised that did not quite quite live up to expectations, sometimes not even for years after the first versions hit the streets. Siri, even on the most advanced, most powerful of Apple's devices does not live up to all the hype about it being a 'personal assistant.' Voice dictation still is a long way from perfect, & that is one of the primary input methods for the Vision Pro. There is the 2nd gen Apple TV remote that everyone hated, which they finally replaced with sometime more suitable for real world use.

Then there are all the OS updates to correct numerous issues, which does not bode well for the first iterations of the new visionOS. Sure, it is based on the 3 existing Apple ones (iOS, macOS, & iPadOS), but there is a lot of brand new spacial stuff added to it that still needs to be tested out in the real world to see what issues users might encounter with it.

The tl;dr version is simply this: both the device & the OS it runs on are so new that we can only guess about how well it will work when users finally can get there hands on it & try it out in all the diverse ways they might want to use it.

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1 hour ago, R C-R said:

Think of all the things that they have promised that did not quite quite live up to expectations, sometimes not even for years after the first versions hit the streets. Siri, even on the most advanced, most powerful of Apple's devices does not live up to all the hype about it being a 'personal assistant.' Voice dictation still is a long way from perfect, & that is one of the primary input methods for the Vision Pro. ...

And, so what?  Have you've seen anything else in IT which holds to be absolute perfect, holds it's expectations and had never needed to been touched again after it's very first invocation, be it hardware and/or software?  I for my part haven't and that's also the reason why I already said, that things will do evolve over time here!

However, you do not need to buy such a device, no one is forcing you to do so. You don't even have to try it, if you think everything about it is so terribly immature and bad. - I just find it funny that you talk and say so much about it here, but then always add your rather more pessimistic mustard to everything then that affects this Vision Pro device even though it's not even on the market yet.

Let's wait until this device is on the market and then see how this device will be accepted by the general public and what end users will say about it. Whether the reaction is more optimistic or pessimistic!

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1 hour ago, R C-R said:

Siri, even on the most advanced, most powerful of Apple's devices does not live up to all the hype about it being a 'personal assistant.' Voice dictation still is a long way from perfect

I am unable to disclose the exact reason why Siri stopped being useful, but those involved in its development are aware. However, I can direct your attention to a similar situation where Apple was partnered with Google for the search engine and GPS on the iPhone. When Google decided to compete, they took the search and GPS with them, leaving Apple in a difficult position. This forced Apple to purchase TomTom GPS and start from scratch. Sometimes history repeats itself, and that is all I can say.

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8 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

And, so what?  Have you've seen anything else in IT which holds to be absolute perfect, holds it's expectations and had never needed to been touched again after it's very first invocation, be it hardware and/or software? 

That is exactly what my point is. This isn't even as yet quite a gen 1 device, so doesn't it make sense to be at least a bit skeptical about all these ideas about how great it is going to work in real world applications once it finally is available?

Among other things, even if everything works perfectly are people really going to want to use it for as long as they might regularly use a desktop computer? It's not very well suited for sharing photos or movies with others, so it isn't likely to replace our phones & TVs for that. There is no haptic feedback so it is not going to able to duplicate the 'Ready Player One' kind of experience. It is relatively heavy for a head-mounted device which could cause problems for many if they try to use it for long.

Bottom line is we just don't know enough to predict how well the market will accept it as a mainstream device, or if it ever will.

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43 minutes ago, albertkinng said:

I am unable to disclose the exact reason why Siri stopped being useful, but those involved in its development are aware.

Whatever the reason, considering how important voice input is for the Vision Pro is, I hope they are still developing its capabilities & accuracy beyond its current limits.

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20 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Among other things, even if everything works perfectly are people really going to want to use it for as long as they might regularly use a desktop computer?

Who said that that's the overall intention of this device? And where do we (you or I) should know how long some individual persons might be physically able to use such a device. - You might get dizzy after half an hour. I, on the other hand, may can handle it for 2 hours at a time and my little nephew until everyone says stop it, you've had this thing on for half a day now!

29 minutes ago, R C-R said:

It's not very well suited for sharing photos or movies with others, so it isn't likely to replace our phones & TVs for that.

That's probably not the main intention of this device, to replace other buyable Apple products/devices. But hey it has an own OS, it has WiFi, it has cameras and eye screens. So there's everything there for it to offer to also make some screenshots, or a recording, of what you actually see and sending that to your home network (...another computer, your iPhone, your iWatch ... etc.)

And do you really think Apple would sell you something, which would make you to never ever again have a need to buy an iPhone or their TV add-on devices etc., to make all other things they sell obsolete?

40 minutes ago, R C-R said:

It is relatively heavy for a head-mounted device which could cause problems for many if they try to use it for long.

Where do you know from, did you weared it (no)! - Don't you think they've already thought about that and thus also did extracted the battery part in order to save weight on your head. I've overall read & heard the difference here, that they tried to keep it pretty light and comfortable to wear in contrast to other such devices!

48 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Bottom line is we just don't know enough to predict how well the market will accept it as a mainstream device, or if it ever will.

So let's talk again when the first 5000 people who already bought one, then do share their overall impressions & insights!

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17 hours ago, v_kyr said:

That's probably not the main intention of this device, to replace other buyable Apple products/devices.

But it is being touted as a potential replacement, not just for Apple products but for all our computing devices, including phones, tablets, desktop & laptop computers, plus big screen TVs, & so on. Of course, Apple is not saying this directly but others are & it is implied in the whole 'future of computing'  & 'this changes everything' hype, including some of what Apple spokespeople are gushing about. Consider for example what Tim Cook said on Good Morning America about it being able to "do anything a Mac or iPhone can do & more."

17 hours ago, v_kyr said:

I've overall read & heard the difference here, that they tried to keep it pretty light and comfortable to wear in contrast to other such devices!

I've read about that too but I have also seen quite a few YT videos like this one & this one & this one in which concerns were expressed about its long term comfort by people who actually were able to try it out at Apple. Among other things, consider the length of many movies & sporting events can easily run over 2 hours so that is likely to be a concern for many. There is only so much that can be done even by Apple to make a one pound or so, front heavy head worn device comfortable to wear for extended periods.

Edited by R C-R
Added another YT reference

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I know the thread has now veered off from AI to Apple's latest gadget (possibly as important as the launch of the iPhone, we'll see) but I'd just like to add something on AI and photo editing from the perspective of a basic user.

Forget generating elephants in space suits and liquidating entire crowds from St. Peter's Square...

I think a piece of software that can offer people with basic skills like me the following:

  • Easy background replacement (especially if shot on a green screen or neutral background)
  • Easy outcropping to fix minor problems with framing
  • Easy facial feature correction (face-aware warp, etc., eyes, mouth, reshaping, etc.)
  • Easy removal of problematic elements (no, not everyone in St. Peter's Square, just maybe a dog or plant or whatever)
  • Easy replacement of maybe patterns, textures, hair colors, etc.

will be successful in attracting what you might call semi-skilled amateurs, which is, I would suspect, not a small market.

I'm very comfortable with Affinity Photo now after having used it for 18 months or so, but I am now changing to Mac and seriously weighing up a PS sub or buying Affinity on all platforms for the (effectively) low package price they offer the suite at. Maybe I'll try both approaches.

But the time-saving aspect of PS for my hobbyist interests is very tempting. In some ways, it's refreshing AP doesn't hold your hand like PS does. You learn a lot. But the trouble is, as others have said, once you have learned how to remove a background perfectly, it does not get that much faster, just better. For us hobbyists, who are spending our time on photo editing but getting no money for doing so, saving time is going to be a key factor. (The permanent sub to PS is of course a pain but then again, PS is now effectively server-powered photo editing, so it actually makes more sense than before.)

Just my $0.02.

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4 hours ago, R C-R said:

But it is being touted as a potential replacement, not just for Apple products but for all our computing devices, including phones, tablets, desktop & laptop computers, plus big screen TVs, & so on.

Well that's the overall generating (making) hype, fuel interest and promotion in a new upcomming Apple product. IT medias etc. didn't had these times much news to report these days, so they're now pouncing on it everywhere just to have something to report and talk about at all. - So far we're just debating/talking about eggs that have not yet been laid, meaning none of us have seen or tried the part in person. Therefore, one cannot really say with absolute certainty what the device is predestined for and what not. - So you only rely on what others say without having explored the properties and possible applications yourself. So how do you know at this point if it can actually replace your computers and your iPhone etc. at all.

5 hours ago, R C-R said:

Consider for example what Tim Cook said on Good Morning America about it being able to "do anything a Mac or iPhone can do & more."

What did you expect that he says, that it will be only partially usable. Or that it's too heavy to be carried for two hours at a time?  Of course he will say that thing can make coffee and wash the car, it's the best thing since sliced bread etc., since after all he also wants to sell these devices world wide.

5 hours ago, R C-R said:

...Among other things, consider the length of many movies & sporting events can easily run over 2 hours so that is likely to be a concern for many. ...

I think it's better to get your own picture of it, aka try it out for yourself and don't necessarily rely on what others tell you. In addition, your application environment could be completely different than watching sports programs for 2 hours at a time or the like. - You can also take routinely breaks before you fall over, no one is forcing you to keep it on your head non-stop. The device shouldn't control you, you should control the device, you decide what you do with it and how long you can endure it.

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3 hours ago, MandM said:

I know the thread has now veered off from AI to Apple's latest gadget

Yes, sadly this thread has drifted away from it's initial theme. - The removale and replacement AI features you've listed do make sense for imaging software and are things other software partly already supports.

3 hours ago, MandM said:

But the time-saving aspect of PS for my hobbyist interests is very tempting. In some ways, it's refreshing AP doesn't hold your hand like PS does. You learn a lot. But the trouble is, as others have said, once you have learned how to remove a background perfectly, it does not get that much faster, just better. For us hobbyists, who are spending our time on photo editing but getting no money for doing so, saving time is going to be a key factor.

Hmm, I usually would see that the other way around, namely as a hobbyist I usually have more time of the world to do something. I'm not forced to do something always mostly time quickly due to business deadlines and the like. - Meaning as a hobbyist there is usually no customer sitting in your neck ...

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7 hours ago, v_kyr said:

Well that's the overall generating (making) hype, fuel interest and promotion in a new upcomming Apple product.

Yes, & it is not that much different from all the hype about how AI will change everything, which is why it ended up being discussed so much in this topic.

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9 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Yes, & it is not that much different from all the hype about how AI will change everything, which is why it ended up being discussed so much in this topic.

As far as I know, Mr. Cook always (mostly) avoids using the word AI here in this context and also makes certain group-wide behavioral guidelines in this regard. Same here for that upcoming Apple product and how it was presented at WWDC.

 

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14 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

As far as I know, Mr. Cook always (mostly) avoids using the word AI here in this context and also makes certain group-wide behavioral guidelines in this regard.

I am not sure who from Apple mentioned it but AI (as I understand it in the form of neural networks) was used both for training the OS on recognizing finger gestures & for creating the mapping for the "persona" (avatar) used for FaceTime & such.

Also, in another Good Morning America interview (at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmOC7dK3rc0) Cook was asked about AI & talked about it at some length. I think some of that too is relevant to this topic, specifically about the appropriate uses & misuses of AI.

 

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3 hours ago, R C-R said:

I am not sure who from Apple mentioned it but AI (as I understand it in the form of neural networks) was used both for training the OS on recognizing finger gestures & for creating the mapping for the "persona" (avatar) used for FaceTime & such.

They have their own dev kits for all that stuff for more modern MacOS versions (than I use) ...

... also their upcomming product (which we talked about a lot above) will probably also make a lot of use of their latest ...

3 hours ago, R C-R said:

Also, in another Good Morning America interview ...

I don't tend to see (or know that one), but instead I read sometimes specific news here instead ...

... and some others, as there are a bunch of other related sites too, like MacRumors, 9to5Mac  ... and so on ..., the net is full of such stuff!

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9 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

I don't tend to see (or know that one), but instead I read sometimes specific news here instead ...

FWIW, the first link you mentioned includes several quotes from the GMA interview (& a link to it as well).

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9 minutes ago, R C-R said:

FWIW, the first link you mentioned includes several quotes from the GMA interview (& a link to it as well).

Why the hell did the germans called that in the article  "the US broadcaster ABC" when it's instead called GMA ??? - However, I either way had just read the short summary there, since as always, have to do some other tasks too beside.

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2 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

Why the hell did the germans called that in the article  "the US broadcaster ABC" when it's instead called GMA ???

ABC (short for American Broadcasting Company) is the US TV network that owns & airs the TV show Good Morning America, GMA for short.

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2 minutes ago, R C-R said:

ABC (short for American Broadcasting Company) is the US TV network that owns & airs the TV show Good Morning America, GMA for short.

Ah Ok, finally learned something new! - Though honestly I don't have any clues about american TV channels and the like, as I just know slightly that CNN channel and that's it.

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24 minutes ago, v_kyr said:

Though honestly I don't have any clues about american TV channels and the like, as I just know slightly that CNN channel and that's it.

It's very complicated. There are 5 major OTA (over the air) US broadcasters, plus a bunch of minor ones. Coverage varies by market so some cities & towns have many of them & others a lot less. However, CNN is not an OTA broadcaster.

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On 6/13/2023 at 10:18 AM, MandM said:

I know the thread has now veered off from AI to Apple's latest gadget (possibly as important as the launch of the iPhone, we'll see) but I'd just like to add something on AI and photo editing from the perspective of a basic user.

Forget generating elephants in space suits and liquidating entire crowds from St. Peter's Square...

I think a piece of software that can offer people with basic skills like me the following:

  • Easy background replacement (especially if shot on a green screen or neutral background)
  • Easy outcropping to fix minor problems with framing
  • Easy facial feature correction (face-aware warp, etc., eyes, mouth, reshaping, etc.)
  • Easy removal of problematic elements (no, not everyone in St. Peter's Square, just maybe a dog or plant or whatever)
  • Easy replacement of maybe patterns, textures, hair colors, etc.

will be successful in attracting what you might call semi-skilled amateurs, which is, I would suspect, not a small market.

I'm very comfortable with Affinity Photo now after having used it for 18 months or so, but I am now changing to Mac and seriously weighing up a PS sub or buying Affinity on all platforms for the (effectively) low package price they offer the suite at. Maybe I'll try both approaches.

But the time-saving aspect of PS for my hobbyist interests is very tempting. In some ways, it's refreshing AP doesn't hold your hand like PS does. You learn a lot. But the trouble is, as others have said, once you have learned how to remove a background perfectly, it does not get that much faster, just better. For us hobbyists, who are spending our time on photo editing but getting no money for doing so, saving time is going to be a key factor. (The permanent sub to PS is of course a pain but then again, PS is now effectively server-powered photo editing, so it actually makes more sense than before.)

Just my $0.02.

Right on! I came to this thread googling Affinity Photo AI. I have been using Affinity Designer, Photo, Publisher professionally since each initial beta came out, and so far (since 2014) I have loved it, and also my industry and my previous office have started to adopt Affinity widely. It's no secret that some of Serif's biggest corporate clients are architecture firms. 

The new generative fill and edit though has made me promptly download all the Adobe Creative cloud crap and download the new Adobe Photoshop Beta to try it out and, I might actually need to subscribe to Adobe just to use the generative fill feature.

Here is an example of a very quick and dirty editing in Photoshop Beta with AI of adding elements to a generated image. This is a game changer as it allows much quciker post-production with less time spent.

Needless to say, as many have already mentioned that this will quickly become an essential feature, so hoping it makes it in Affinity Photo in 2.x instead of waiting another 5 or more years when it will land in 3.x

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Related to the overall AI hype everywhere nowadays, I've just saw this Nikon campain ... 😉
 

(Natural Intelligence - Nikon makes fun of AI images)

Some comment from a photomagazine related site to that ...

Quote

The campaign clearly shows that a company like Nikon is worried about the sales of cameras and accessories when suddenly everyone can create interesting pictures with AI. At least in the professional field, Nikon has little to fear for a long time if it stays the course with free updates for the firmware. The fourth main version for the Z 9 was released this week, which enables completely new working techniques when using high-end cameras - including the focus trap.

 

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On 5/24/2023 at 2:20 PM, Lee_T said:

Hi WMax70,

There are no plans for this at present.

Lee

 

As a loyal customer I feel the need to give my feedback.

This AI thing is already changing everything and it's going to be an absolute "must have", sooner than later.

If you don't plan to do something about it, even some kind of "basic" AI tool, it will be extremely hard to stick to Affinity. The technology/working quality of life given by the new Adobe plugin is just too good to be ignored. It's not perfect, it's not impeccable. Not yet. But it already gives a HUGE boost to productivity.

Right now Adobe's AI tools is something that I would already pay for.

Please, don't drop the ball on the new AI era. It would be a huge mistake, in my opinion.

 

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Quote

For us hobbyists, who are spending our time on photo editing but getting no money for doing so, saving time is going to be a key factor.


It will be even more important for professionals (money involved). Less time to do the same job means I can do more in the same time, getting even more money from more clients.

The AI revolution is going to hit everyone. Affinity will be forced to make a choice, sooner or later. Or it will be the next Kodak, in my personal opinion. Becuse having the AI content filler is an absolute game changer. It will come a time when customers will expect to see this tool in any photo editing tool. It's just too good to be ignored... And it suddenly made the Adobe supscription a lot, really a lot more appealing.

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