3D object import ?

[supersts]

Hello, 
In this latest version of Affionity, have you integrated the 3D object import function (.obj for example) with object manipulation functions to do global graphic compositing with the existing 2D tools? Just to tell you that there are a lot of expectations from colleagues and friends.

We would like not to use photoshop for that anymore !

[Old Bruce]

2D only.

[Medical Officer Bones]

On 12/28/2022 at 1:24 PM, supersts said:

We would like not to use photoshop for that anymore !

Unfortunately for Photoshop users the 3D functionality is being phased out and is now deprecated. Which means it is only available in older versions. Besides, the old 3D rendering in Photoshop is terribly slow and the render quality a throwback to 25 years ago. Not very usable anymore. All the more reason for Adobe to remove it from Photoshop, and long overdue in my opinion.

Heck, even the lighting filter no longer functions properly in current versions of Photoshop! Or panorama editing! All because of the simple facts that these features were reliant on OpenGL (a 3D API) to function.

If you are serious about integrating high-quality 3d object rendering: install a proper 3d render app such as Blender. Which is free, btw.

Avoid Photoshop's antiquated 3d options. Just not worth it.

[kirk23]

No need of  actual 3d features  IMO.    Would be nice  if they just add some 2d compositing features to work with  CG images , to combine them with photo properly etc.

1. cryptomatte live filter with a mask on demand  ( not like exr-IO plugin for Photoshop with gazillion layers at  once, just  one exact necessary  mask at a time on demand)

2. RGBDA  channels mode with depth channel.   Just convert  CMYK to this  one please. Or make CMYK to support 32 floating point  like Photoshop.

3.  A few special  layer blending modes for  depth combine .   Like where depth is using lighter blending and  other channels  use a mask produced on the fly by subtracting underlying depth from combined one  + threshold.

4. UV live filter that would sample UV AOV  or manually made UV gradients  to remap  pixels over it.  So we could  replace  rendered materials in one click   without messing with  mesh deforms etc.  

5. Proper live AO  and shadow ray tracing   from depth channel as a live  filter. 

6.  Brush nozzles  with depth channel  .  A vector way to scatter them in Designer.

Imo it should be all easily possible, just a few  small interface fixes here and there.

Please don't waste your time on something like Adobe Stager .    It's totally useless.     Just make  some basic 2d compositing  abilities , preferably Blender compatible . So we wouldn't have to buy Nuke just to  make a nice one frame CG picture.   No need  to make a mess of node based interface for that  too ( while would still be nice indeed).

 

 

 

 

[fde101]

On 12/30/2022 at 1:44 PM, kirk23 said:

5. Proper live AO  and shadow ray tracing   from depth channel as a live  filter. 

I don't think you will get this one.

 

On 12/30/2022 at 1:44 PM, kirk23 said:

small interface fixes here and there

These are not just "interface" fixes, some of them could potentially require more extensive changes to the core of the software (particularly for proper depth channel support).

Some of them are quite reasonable and would be welcome, though a few of them would probably be considered out of the primary scope of the software and I suspect will not get a great deal of priority in light of the amount of work involved (and the ongoing lack of data retention with a zeroed alpha channel suggests that Serif is not taking this market segment seriously at the moment).

 

You are better off using a proper compositing tool for things like this, such as Fusion or Natron.

[kirk23]

20 hours ago, fde101 said:

These are not just "interface" fixes, some of them could potentially require more extensive changes to the core of the software (particularly for proper depth channel support).

They have CMYK  right , it's basically 4 channels + alpha  , so 5 channels .   The only thing to make it work  is to support 16 and better  32 bit  in  CMYK mode , like Photoshop does.  The rest is just color management and support in brush nozzles .    Well, the later is optional probably .

In Photoshop  the idea would be perfectly workable right now  if it would have  same live lighting filter  to visualize  the depth on the fly  somehow.

Again , I am not talking  about turning  Affinity into Nuke.  Just a few features like impasto painting for example.   People sometimes forget that there is  no difference in between 2d and 3d  in computer graphics .  3d is also 2d  on your screen surface or camera plane + a bit of 3 century geometry.  Same as any perspective drawing  starting from antiquity. 

 

[fde101]

4 hours ago, kirk23 said:

The only thing to make it work  is to support 16 and better  32 bit  in  CMYK mode

How difficult this will be depends on how the software is architected internally.  It may be simple, or it may require extensive changes throughout the software in the event that all of the tools, filters, etc. need to be modified or otherwise adapted to account for each color mode.

You then have the situation in which many of those tools and filters will attempt to *interpret* the channels has having a particular meaning in terms of the color values they represent.  A depth channel is different from a color, and it is not clear how much of an impact this might have on the underlying behaviors of some of the tools and in particular some of the filters.

 

4 hours ago, kirk23 said:

same live lighting filter  to visualize  the depth on the fly  somehow

This is a potential impact to the flow of rendering within the software, which can have performance implications, among other things.  It would need to account for OpenGL vs. Metal vs. whatever they are using on Windows these days (DirectX?), as we are now delving into 3D territory, which is something that Serif has indicated multiple times they have no intention of doing with the Affinity suite.

 

4 hours ago, kirk23 said:

People sometimes forget that there is  no difference in between 2d and 3d  in computer graphics

There is a huge difference between 2D and 3D when it comes to the technical requirements to support them.  In 2D you are dealing with planar surfaces which lay flat against each other.  There is no geometry to account for, no lighting to deal with, no need to distort the shape of a brush to account for the contour of an underlying surface, no need for a vanishing point or to determine when things disappear over the horizon.

In 3D you are adding more than just one additional coordinate to the mix: you need to account for a lot of phenomena which simply do not exist in a meaningful way in a 2D world.

While you can consider that 2D art is a subset of 3D in which certain constraints are enforced, those constraints greatly simplify the processing and the concepts that need to be accounted for by software that works on the data.

 

4 hours ago, kirk23 said:

3d is also 2d  on your screen surface or camera plane

No, 3D never appears on a "screen surface".  3D is rendered to produce a 2D image which is then presented on the display - that rendering process is complex and there are entire books representing multiple ways to accomplish it, with various characteristic benefits and shortfalls.  The complexity of the processes involved in producing such a rendering should be reason enough to consider that the underlying data and processes have rather different requirements in their native forms.

 

I am not saying that there is no merit in what you are requesting, but you seem to be assuming that these are simple changes, when we don't really know enough about how the software is architected internally to make that call.  It is very unlikely that these would be "interface fixes" as there would almost certainly be at least some core engine changes required to support some of the things you are asking for, and those changes can often extend outward to other areas of the software, requiring more fundamental changes which can turn it into a big project.

It may be that the software is architected in such a way that some of these could be added relatively easily, but I would guess that some of them will take a long time, and given the relatively specialized nature of what is being asked for, Serif may not consider the effort worth prioritizing right now in light of some of the other shortcomings that currently need to be addressed in the software.

[2ddpainter]

On 12/28/2022 at 10:24 PM, supersts said:

have you integrated the 3D object import function (.obj for example)

 

In case you may not know.
You could take a look at Clip Studio Paint. CSP can import
3D objects (.obj Files) and has even a few 3D primitives.

It's a paint program, but has vector layers. Vector Objects
can be copied to the clipboard as SVG and then pasted into
Affinity Designer.
(I only use Affinity Designer 1.1 so i can not speak for Affinity Designer 2)

Here is a video from Clip Studio Paints Channel.
Where Polycosm uses Clip Studio Paint along with Blender.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7cgC7_OraQ

 

Btw
For a simple (but cool) 3D modeler you can look at Womp 3D (its free).
Its a online Modeler. Self created objects can be exported/downloaded as .Obj
Here a LInk to the Website.
https://www.womp.com/

Here a Video from Womps Channel
(Note: Womp 3D dont have a Texttool, but you can use Primitives
to create Text like Objects)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX43jHazQVE

 

[supersts]

anyway, thank you so much for your answer. I blender plugging would be great with Affinity, to link a 3D object in Blender and Affinity

[kirk23]

11 hours ago, fde101 said:

No, 3D never appears on a "screen surface".  3D is rendered to produce a 2D image which is then presented on the display - that rendering process is complex and there are entire books representing multiple ways to accomplish it, with various characteristic benefits and shortfalls.  The complexity of the processes involved in producing such a rendering should be reason enough to consider that the underlying data and processes have rather different requirements in their native forms.

I am  talking  about stuff 2d compositing soft like Nuke do.   It doesn't have to be  full scale  ray tracing  , or ray marching  or whatever.   Just  a depth  channel  you could use for  deforming a logo on a flag in one click instead of mesh deforming  manually.  Or adding some mist, compositing  in some particle effects . splashes , volume light, fog layers  etc.

t's nothing complicated really . You could call it 2,5D  as Zbrush named it.   Or what Corel Painter does for impasto .  It's all perfectly re-creatable  with current layer system , just inconvenient as hell since requires a huge messy pile of groups , layers and in-between linking . What I offer is to make it easier on UI part.  That's all.   

Some phone cameras already include depth channel to its photos , why not make it usable.