Weird glow around black images

[FAEGames]

21 minutes ago, iconoclast said:

I mean this below. For me it looks like it's making a difference.

 

That indeed does something, but this makes CMYK 100,100,100,100 instead of 0,0,0,100

[thomaso]

24 minutes ago, FAEGames said:

Doesn't seem to make a difference for me.

Yours is a child of another adjustment. Move it up.

1 hour ago, iconoclast said:

drag the Gamma Slider to "0"

I tried before various settings in the Blend Range options for this Group layer with no success in darkening the grey edges, I could only lighten the whole. – Do you have an idea why Gamma set with an adjustment does work?

 

[iconoclast]

11 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Yours is a child of another adjustment. Move it up.

I tried before various settings in the Blend Range options for this Group layer with no success in darkening the grey edges, I could only lighten the whole. – Do you have an idea why Gamma set with an adjustment does work?

 

Not really. It is mysterious to me that the effect only appears on  0% - nothing happens with values up from 0,01%. I suppose it has to do with the alpha channel, but I'm not sure. This might also be the reason why it doesn't work with the Blend Ranges. I tested that too, but it didn't work.

Edit: One additional note: It works better with the Curves. They don't have this 0,01%-step-limitation as the Levels have.

[JimmyJack]

This is how the "rectangle method" PDF export is displaying in Preview. Clearly the simple black (as compared to the leaves) and no glow.
(still a glow in Designer and Illustrator though. I think some of this is just a screen rendering thing for the 100k in the cmyk doc with a coated FOGRA color profile? It doesn't know what to do when the color falls off?).

 

 

[iconoclast]

20 minutes ago, FAEGames said:

That indeed does something, but this makes CMYK 100,100,100,100 instead of 0,0,0,100

Yes, that's another problem. I have no certain idea how to solve it at the moment. There seem to be no options for doing UCR (Undercolour Removement) in Publisher.

[JimmyJack]

6 minutes ago, JimmyJack said:

I think some of this is just a screen rendering thing for the 100k in the cmyk doc with a coated FOGRA color profile?

Although... here's a simple FOGRA CMYK with 100k set up. All is fine.

Something odd is going on with the OP's file.

simple FOGRA test.afdesign

[iconoclast]

I'm not sure, because I never had to do with it, but could Duplex-Print be a solution?

[Old Bruce]

@FAEGames,

As it stands now you have a problem with the PNG file not taking on  0, 0, 0, 100 CMYK. PNG is an  RGB format, change to using a TIFF file for the corners and make the TIFF file CMYK.

Also you may want to fix the white highlights in the leaves, making them transparent instead of white and grey.

[JimmyJack]

@FAEGames I don't know why it worked, but here's a "fixed" file. (you can open the .afdesign format in Publisher)

Turned off the Recolor.
Rasterized the graphics

And used the nested color option (the FX will still work).

THEN...
I toggled the color format from one FOGRA back to the other. This got rid of the glow. (looks buggish to me)
Then I had to adjust the background color back to the original.

Of course I don't have the fonts, so you'll have to fix that.
 

deluxe cover TEMPLATE jj.afdesign

[FAEGames]

Thanks, I will try that. In the meantime I managed to simplify the issue down to this file. A purple rounded rectangle with some text. This still shows a glow around the text for some reason, even if everything isn't rasterized.

example.afpub

[JimmyJack]

4 minutes ago, FAEGames said:

Thanks, I will try that. In the meantime I managed to simplify the issue down to this file. A purple rounded rectangle with some text. This still shows a glow around the text for some reason, even if everything isn't rasterized.

example.afpub 491.47 kB · 0 downloads

Toggle the Color Profile (in Document setup.... in Designer at least) to the other FOGRA then back. Glow gone. You can toggle to anything really. The other FOGRA is just closest.
(There will be a color shift, so check that)

[FAEGames]

I'll show you what I'm doing here, because switching color profiles shifts the colors which I need to correct, to end up in the same spot.

[JimmyJack]

41 minutes ago, FAEGames said:

I'll show you what I'm doing here, because switching color profiles shifts the colors which I need to correct, to end up in the same spot.

 

Ahhh, darn. Didn't see that the black changed.

So I'm gonna go back to this statement:

1 hour ago, JimmyJack said:

I think some of this is just a screen rendering thing for the 100k in the cmyk doc with a coated FOGRA color profile? It doesn't know what to do when the color falls off?

At least the PDF export after the color procedure seems to look fine in some of the external apps (preview etc). But maybe those apps aren't really equipped to emulate the cmyk color space.

[lacerto]

If this is a foil job, I think you need to separate the foil elements as a spot color and in something like 1200 dpi monochrome simulated grayscale image with aliased (hard) edges, and printed on a separate plate from the K of the background color:

 

I think you should ask advise from your printshop as to which parts of the foil elements need to knock out and which overprint. In the attached PDF the decorative elements overprint while texts knockout, except for the thin outline that was defined for text layouts that serve as a trap and overprint.

deluxe cover TEMPLATE_fixed.pdf

[FAEGames]

I now see that this is a very specific job. And I was so happy that I've learned to layout a whole book by myself haha. I'm going back to the printer and ask for help. Thanks everyone that tried to help me. 

[iconoclast]

One additional note: printing is expensive and the result is irreversible. Because of this, a rational and well considered workflow is a very good idea. Concerning your project this means that it would have been better to create the curlicue ornaments in the different colours you need them (and the texts in the same colours in Publisher, because of the sharpness), and to replace them by the other versions for the certain jobs. This can be done easily by using the Ressource Management of Publisher. That would be better than Recolouring, even because the elements you recoloured (ornaments and text) don't have the same colour (especially greyscale). In my experience it is the most secure way to have all elements in their final condition for the layouting. Tickering often leads to problems that can become very expensive and unsatisfying.

By the way, the contrast between the black ornaments/text and the background is not very good. Looks a little dull and is not easy to read. Just my two cents.

And a final idea: If you want to have 0%,0%,0%,100% CMYK black on such a violet background, it could possibly also be a solution to print pure black on coloured paper. That would even be the cheapest solution, I think (- only one printing plate).

[Alfred]

13 hours ago, iconoclast said:

Yes, that's another problem. I have no certain idea how to solve it at the moment. There seem to be no options for doing UCR ([Under-colour Removal]) in Publisher.

I think you’re referring to what’s usually called “knockout” in English. We don’t currently have proper controls for this in the Affinity apps.

 

[iconoclast]

3 minutes ago, Alfred said:

I think you’re referring to what’s usually called “knockout” in English. We don’t currently have proper controls for this in the Affinity apps.

 

Interesting. I often read this word, "knockout", but I didn't know that it means UCR.

Would be a case for the Suggestions, I think, because it often spares a lot of money if you don't need brilliant black.

[FAEGames]

16 minutes ago, iconoclast said:

One additional note: printing is expensive and the result is irreversible. Because of this, a rational and well considered workflow is a very good idea. Concerning your project this means that it would have been better to create the curlicue ornaments in the different colours you need them (and the texts in the same colours in Publisher, because of the sharpness), and to replace them by the other versions for the certain jobs. This can be done easily by using the Ressource Management of Publisher. That would be better than Recolouring, even because the elements you recoloured (ornaments and text) don't have the same colour (especially greyscale). In my experience it is the most secure way to have all elements in their final condition for the layouting. Tickering often leads to problems that can become very expensive and unsatisfying.

By the way, the contrast between the black ornaments/text and the background is not very good. Looks a little dull and is not easy to read. Just my two cents.

And a final idea: If you want to have 0%,0%,0%,100% CMYK black on such a violet background, it could possibly also be a solution to print pure black on coloured paper. That would even be the cheapest solution, I think (- only one printing plate).

The end result should roughly be like this, so the 100% black is just a printer requirement to do the foiling. Nothing on the cover will actually be black.

 

 

[iconoclast]

Ah yes, you mentioned that in an earlier post. I forgot. Sorry!

[FAEGames]

As I understood from the printer, instead of adding effects to the black, they assign C 50 / M 40 / Y 40 / K 100 as "deep black". I don't know if that's easier, but a different topic.

[iconoclast]

I'm not experienced in foil printing. So I can't really assess this.

[thomaso]

3 hours ago, FAEGames said:

the 100% black is just a printer requirement to do the foiling. Nothing on the cover will actually be black.

That is not fully correct. As mentioned above, your purple background currently contains 50% black. Thus the printer can't just use the black ink channel to create the foil – unless the foil production process would ignore all black below 100%.

That is why @lacerto switched to an additional ink channel for the foil by adding a spot colour (+ eliminated the formerly antialiased edges of this topic). Depending on the printer's pre-press process here a spot colour may make it easier but doesn't have to. Therefore the need to ask the printer.

With this layout, it may even be cheaper to print the purple background as a spot colour as well. Then the print file contains only 2 colour channels, purple and foil. As a printing machine can have a different number of ink rollers than 4 (cmyk), the print file needed depends on the machine the printer has and plans to use. For example, your layout could easily be printed on a machine with only 2 ink rollers, or if you want silver as a print colour, for example, also on a machine with 5 ink rollers (cmyk + spot).

Your printer will tell you what's best for their process / available hardware. But on the other hand this also means another printer might require a different setup (e.g. 2x spot color) and offer you a different price than the printer with the 4-colour machine. The price depends on a.) the available equipment and b.) its current workload / utilisation.

3 hours ago, iconoclast said:

Interesting. I often read this word, "knockout", but I didn't know that it means UCR.

UCR is something different – although 'knockout' removes colors underneath, too. While 'knockout' means white = no ink, UCR means less ink and is related to the way the printing inks achieve a certain color and thus to the total ink amount (= TIC, total ink coverage) (which influences the drying time for instance if a 5th color shall get printed, e.g. a varnish). Imagine you can achieve darkness with the inks CMY only – or alternatively can use mainly K with CMY only for a certain hue/tone (bluish, brownish / cold, warm). The latter is called UCR.

Whereas "Knockout" and "Overprint" belong together and have another task than UCR/GCR. (German "Aussparen" + "Überdrucken"). So, for a specific visual result UCR is an option, while knockout is a condition, a must have. For instance to print red text on a black background you must knockout, whereas for small, thin black text on a red background you can but don't have to knockout, respectively, in this case knockout can harm and result in unwanted white edges around the red text if the 3 printing inks (m+y+k) don't perfectly fit (e.g. if the paper grows slightly when it sucks the first ink). – A third related technique is "Trapping" (German: "Überfüllen") which means to increase a certain shape very subtle to ensure its visibilty (e.g. thin white text on rich black). Nowadays trapping doesn't need to get set by the designer (it used to be a setting in the beginning of DTP, e.g. in Freehand) but, if required gets created automatically in the pre-press process.

Hier ein deutscher Artikel über Aussparen + Überdrucken: https://www.onlineprinters.de/magazin/ueberdrucken-und-aussparen-indesign/

[FAEGames]

Update: I actually got it working for the text by adding the 100K color as global, spot color and setting it to overprint. This doesn't work for graphics though.

[lacerto]

21 hours ago, FAEGames said:

This doesn't work for graphics though.

You need to make the image grayscale with transparent background. It is likely that the image also needs to be "monochrome" (no shades of gray but hard edged), even if technically this is not supported in Affinity apps (they do not support 1-bit images, so even if the attached image only has one "color", it is an 8-bit image).

When the image is grayscale, it can serve as an ink, and you can assign it a spot color so that it prints on a separate plate together with the text that is going to be used for foil. But you should check with the printer if they have any specific requirements (assuming that the purple you have on the cover is actually representing color that is going to be printed, rather than representing purple fabric? If not then I guess they will be happy just getting the hard-edge black on white image for the foil).

border-303823.tiff

[UPDATE: I do not think that you can produce the required image with an adjustment, so what I have done above is added a white vector shape as the bottom layer as a background, then applied Threshold adjustment on the original image to get hard edges in one color, then resized document to get more pixels, converted to 8-bit grayscale with Black and white profile, grouped all layers and rasterized, and finally removed the white background by using Filter > Colors > Erase White Paper, and exported to grayscale 8-bit TIFF. This is roughly the same as the two-step procedure in Photoshop converting to grayscale and then to Bitmap image with 50% threshold using 1200 dpi resolution and then using that image in InDesign for foil plate composition.]