Jagged edges when SLOWLY drawing selection using lasso tool (antialiasing is on )

[gentleclockdivider]

Hi all , I am testdriving both designer and photo an I am seriously impressed 
But there is one issue that I encountered in affinity designer ( pixel mode)  and sadly it's also present in affinity photo .
When drawing a freehand selection with the lasso tool ( antialiasing is ON ) feather is off , there are always jagged eddges when  filled or handdrawn filled with a brush  ( most obvious on diagonal lines ) 

This is a serious issue when using the bevel effects since it accentuates these edges .

I would love to purchase both programs but this really needs to befixed , unless it's user error I'de be glad to be corrected 
I tried the highest resolution , high dpi (300.)  , always the same issue , in photoshop this issue is not present.
Here's a screenshot , the selection is handdrawn , no feather , anti-aliasing on , a4 format ,300 dpi 
First affinity , then a 10 year old phostoshop versopn 
 

Edited August 8, 2021 by gentleclockdivider

[gentleclockdivider]

I think it's the amount of jitter that is causing this ( when using the lasso freehand ) 

Edited August 8, 2021 by gentleclockdivider

[gentleclockdivider]

Or perhaps the antialiasing just doesn't work with the lasso tool 
 

[gentleclockdivider]

Edit .

I think I know what it is , it's the amount of jitter when drawing slowly , when drawing a selection fast the issue dissapears 
These issues are mostly present on touchscreen devices , but NOT for desktop programs .
I assume the same code is used for both ?

Like I said before this issue is also preset nin designer , photoshop does not have this issue 

Please fix and you have yourself a new customer

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by gentleclockdivider

[gentleclockdivider]

Oh yea, I am on win 10 
It seems this is a known  issue that has been reported 3 years ago ., the feather enabled to fractional numbers does not solve it
Slowly drawn selections are always jagged when filled and I think it's becasue of the algoritm used when drawing the selection 

I had really high hopes for ffinity 

Too bad 

Another example that shows the root of the problem 
 

Edited August 8, 2021 by gentleclockdivider

[Old Bruce]

What DPI are you using? The only way I could something like what you are showing is by having a very low dpi setting.

[gentleclockdivider]

330 dpi 

It has nothing to do with that , otherwise the same would occur with fast drawing selection  and the screesnhots I posted clearly show smooth lines when selection is drawn fast . 
I have documented it well in detail , it's all about the speed the selection is drawn , iow jitter 

It's an issue that is common with touch tablets etc where drawing slowly produces jiiter , but not with pc desktop programs and surely not for selection tools , otherwise photoshop would suffer from the same issue .

Using 1000 dpi ( which is pretty big ) the jittering is still there  , just slowly draw a diagonal line with the lasso tool and fill it .

Here again some screenshots to show the difference , and it really doesn't matter  if the dpi is high or low , the jitter is about the algoritm that is being used when  drawn slowly .

 

It would be great if a developer chimed in 

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by gentleclockdivider

[gentleclockdivider]

Here it's  done at 1000 dpi , canvas size is 10 by 10 cm 

This is a serious issue guys 

 

[gentleclockdivider]

To summarize and to convince those who still believe it's a dpi problem 
Set your document to a verry  high  dpi  
Now , at the best of your abilities draw a triangle with the freehand lasso tool , do it slowly so the lines are straight ( the diagonal lines will be jittery )  , fill it with the pencil 
Do the same procedure  again but draw as fast you can  , the jiiter  in the diagonal lines will be  gone and the filled result is smooth .

 

This is all done on win 10 , desktop with the mouse , no wacom 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by gentleclockdivider

[R C-R]

If you want straight selection edges with no jitter, why not do what the status bar shows & use Shift+ click? Either that, or switch the tool type to polygonal.

[gentleclockdivider]

It's not just about the straight lines , these were used an example because the jagged edges are most noticeable , and the easiest way to showcase the difference between slow and fast drawn selections.

The jitter happens with  every shape  that is drawn with the freehand lasso tool at a slow speed , I can upload different examples but I am afraid 

the developers don't care 

It's a gigantic bug that needs to be adressed , I can't understand how this one went under the radar for so long 
 

Edited August 9, 2021 by gentleclockdivider

[iconoclast]

Doesn't it depend on your hand how smooth the selections are? My selections look much smoother. But of course they are not as smooth as they could be and I want them to have in many cases. Because of this I use the tools and functions that fit best for my purposes. And these are in the majority of cases not the "Free Selection" tool. Doesn't matter if in AfPhoto, Photoshop, GIMP or any other software. In AfPhoto, you can Refine selections if they are not smooth enough. Have you tried this?

[gentleclockdivider]

Noppes , as you can see the straight lines I have drawn are almost perfectly straight , the jitter does NOT come from an unstable hand-mouse 

In photoshop it doesn't matter how slow the selection is drawn , it's always smooth ,
If I wan't to mannualy  draw a selection around an eye socket in Adobe photoshop ,  it doesn't matter how slow I do this , it will ALWAYS reflect the hand drawn shape MINUS jitter 

Those little staircases,wobbles you see in the straight selection line is the jitter , it's happens in both programs so it 's the same flawed algoritm used .
I love both Affinity designer and Photo  , but if I can't make detailed selections I gues it's not for me 
Waiting for one of the developers to give some detailed info about , if it get's unnoticed then I know enough .
  
 

[iconoclast]

I'm doing image editing since more than 15 years, and I never made detailed selections with only the Free Selection tool (Lasso), because it is too unwieldy. To get more precise selections I refine them with the Refine function or with a mask.

[gentleclockdivider]

Sorry but that is a flawed argument .
You're steering away from the issue by offering a workaround .
I noticed it straight away in affinity designer while I was doing the bevel effect (pixel layer)  on a filled selection , the jagged edges were obvious
I downloaded the demo of PHOTO to see if it suffered from the same issue , and it did 

50 euro for each of those programs is an absolute bargain and they are both incredible programs  , let's make them  better by adressing certain issues 

Edited August 9, 2021 by gentleclockdivider

[iconoclast]

As far as I know, the Pixel Persona in Designer is nothing but a limited AfPhoto, so it wouldn't surprise that it has the same behaviour in some things. But fact is also, that the Free Selection Tool can't draw smoother than your hand. Because of that there are so many fine opportunities to refine selections or to create better ones from the start.  Depending on what you want to do, you could for example use a mask, that you can paint with the Brush or even the Pixel Tool. For both tools you can use the Stabiliser, that makes your brushstrokes as smooth as you want. A much more user-friendly workflow than fiddling with the Free Selection Tool, I think. I can't see that there is an "issue". I have no problems with that. And most graphic artists don't. Why do you?

[R C-R]

7 hours ago, gentleclockdivider said:

Those little staircases,wobbles you see in the straight selection line is the jitter ...

The staircase shape is the result of the 'marching ants' selection being displayed as aligned to pixel edges. If you zoom really far in so you can see individual pixels on a pixel layer, you can see this as you make the selection, & that it doesn't matter how fast or slow the selection is drawn -- the selection will never 'cut' diagonally through a pixel, so it always displays a staircase shape.

7 hours ago, gentleclockdivider said:

You're steering away from the issue by offering a workaround .

No, @iconoclast is just saying that a freehand selection tool is not a good choice for making precise selections. 

[gentleclockdivider]

O.K. fair enough , then it would really benefit to implement a smoothing feature , so we can accuratly and slowly draw selections with the freehand tool . 
This is the first time I have experienced this .

Still drawing  a fast selection has a smoother result  , when you totally zoom in you'll notice that certain pixels are partially deleted  and this has  the efffect of smoothing 

  unlike a slow selection which deletes all pixels =  hard edges  .

 

[R C-R]

4 hours ago, gentleclockdivider said:

Still drawing  a fast selection has a smoother result  , when you totally zoom in you'll notice that certain pixels are partially deleted  and this has  the efffect of smoothing 

Please explain what you mean by this -- making selections does not delete anything. Are you maybe talking about the difference between making selections with antialiasing enabled vs. disabled?

[RNKLN]

I can easily reproduce the OP's issue. See below. The big shape was drawn quickly while the smaller one was drawn slowly. After drawing the shape, I used the Flood Fill tool to fill with grey.

Image 1: both shapes

Image 2: big one zoomed in

Image 3: small one zoomed in (at similar zoom level as 2).

[iconoclast]

It wouldn't make sense to be able to select half pixels, because pixels can't be dissected. Pixels are the bricks raster images are build of. Every single pixel can contain only one colour. So if you could select even half pixels, it wouldn't have any effect because you can't fill half pixels. The only thing that can help is antialiasing (menu "Select" > "Smooth"). It adapts the pixels, that create the prongs at the edges, to their surrounding colours and smoothens the edges this way.

Another opportunity would be to feather the selection. But this would cause an edge, blending to the background.

By the way, it is verry important to assess the aliasing of the edges with the zoom factor 100%. If you watch it with a larger zoom factor, the edge will of course ever look more jagged. But it will not affect the quality of the image, because at last only the quality of its original size counts.

[iconoclast]

9 minutes ago, RNKLN said:

I can easily reproduce the OP's issue. See below. The big shape was drawn quickly while the smaller one was drawn slowly. After drawing the shape, I used the Flood Fill tool to fill with grey.

Image 1: both shapes

Image 2: big one zoomed in

Image 3: small one zoomed in (at similar zoom level as 2).

That looks like that quick drawing causes automatic antialiasing. That's interesting. Never noticed that before. But as I already said, I never use the Free Selection Tool for fine selections. Because there are some features that do it much better, easier and more reliable.

[gentleclockdivider]

That's what I have been trying to explain all the time .

I appreciate the responces but , all it took was for someone to actually verify and test it (thanks RNKLN) 
Quick (fast drawn)  selection indeed does some kind of aliasing ,

I assume it does some averaging , in the  previous post I   explained this are partially deleted since  these are responsible for the antialiasing effect   

Slow selection selects ALL PIXELS and thus results in hard edges .
Let's get this one to the developers 

Edited August 10, 2021 by gentleclockdivider

[iconoclast]

1 hour ago, gentleclockdivider said:

That's what I have been trying to explain all the time .

I appreciate the responces but , all it took was for someone to actually verify and test it (thanks RNKLN) 
Quick (fast drawn)  selection indeed does some kind of aliasing ,

I assume it does some averaging , in the  previous post I   explained this are partially deleted since  these are responsible for the antialiasing effect   

Slow selection selects ALL PIXELS and thus results in hard edges .
Let's get this one to the developers 

If you like. It could at least be interesting what they say about it. I'm not sure, but possibly it could really be a thing that should be fixed. Don't really know.

But to clarify it again, there are much more customer friendly opportunities to make precise selections. It is not the first time for me that I had to do with beginners who thought that they had found a simple and easy way to do something perfectly and not too complicated, but then suffered about that it didn't work the way they thought. And then they began to rail against the software for it. And at the end they wasted much more time worrying about it than it would have taken to learn a little and look for alternative and better ways. I don't know any graphic designer who really creates his finer selections with the Free Selection Tool. It is more a rough tool for rough preselections that can be refined with f.e. masks.

[gentleclockdivider]

What makes you think I am a beginner , just becasue I registered on this forum ?
 I have well over  2 decades experience with photoshop, illustrator  , 3d max , blender etc... 
This issue was the first thing I noticed , because I use the freehand selection tool  a lot , depending on the task .

Yes , it's a rough tool in affinity