Publisher separates 100% black after exporting to PDF for press

[Stes]

I work on two colour project - black & spot colour.

I have some pdf adverts placed in the document which have only 100% black + this spot colour.

After exporting AP document to PDF (press ready) black becomes four colour black instead of 100% black.

All pdf's files are in Euroscale Coated v2 - same as Publisher document.

What should I do to avoid this separation error?

 

[Old Bruce]

I make a document palette and make a Pure Black (cmyk 0 0 0 100) Global swatch and apply it to text and whatever else needs to be pure black.

[thomaso]

55 minutes ago, Stes said:

After exporting AP document to PDF (press ready) black becomes four colour black instead of 100% black. (...) What should I do to avoid this separation error?

To me it works with "press ready" to export as 100 K.
– What PDF viewer app are you using? Note that not all apps respect the embedded color profile.
– In Acrobat you may choose a profile, a different than the PDF's profile can separate the 100 K.
– What color do you get for the black in Affinity when you open the exported PDF ? (choose "estimate" the color space)
– Export as PDF/X, this will force an "OutputIntent" being written to the PDF.

[thomaso]

5 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

I make a document palette and make a Pure Black (cmyk 0 0 0 100) Global swatch and apply it to text and whatever else needs to be pure black.

I use the existing 100 K swatch instead: 

[Dazmondo77]

I only trust my CMYK Default palette of process globals which has solid CMYK and proper greys ( K 10% incremental tints) which serves my purposes - note that the last black swatch in this palette is a rich black of 20,20,20,100

Feel free to use:

9 hours ago, thomaso said:

– Export as PDF/X, this will force an "OutputIntent" being written to the PDF.

I'm with thomaso 👍

Process globals.afpalette

[Stes]

I meant black from placed PDF files. Publisher's black remains 100% black. But black on all placed PDF's (adverts) becomes separated to CMYK after exporting for press PDF/X.

 

[lacerto]

(...)

[Slammer]

The best way to handle this is to work in the RGB colorspace and let the printer´s RIP handle the conversion to CMKY. 
 

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, Lagarto said:

At the moment the black (K100) in placed graphics (e.g. AI and PDF) stays what it is only if the placed file uses the same color profile as the document

Isn't this the case already for the OP? According to this initial info:   "All pdf's files are in Euroscale Coated v2 - same as Publisher document."
 

41 minutes ago, Slammer said:

The best way to handle this is to work in the RGB colorspace and let the printer´s RIP handle the conversion to CMKY. 

Hm? – Note this topic is about maintaining 100 K black, e.g. to reduce the total number of inks (see above: "two  color project"), or generally to prevent black text from getting printed with more than 1 ink.

Any conversion to RGB, at what step ever, would definitely prevent from achieving the desired approach.

[000]

1 hour ago, Slammer said:

The best way to handle this is to work in the RGB colorspace

Uuuuuuuh, that hurts. Please. Don't!
In my opinion and experience, it's always advisable to work in the colourspace that you want to use for your output.

[thomaso]

@Jens,  "thomaso said" that?

Uuuuu, that hurts, too. Please change your post. Thanks.

[000]

30 minutes ago, thomaso said:

"thomaso said" that?

Sorry, I accidentally selected and quoted from your quote instead of the original ... I know you'd never say something like this. Changed it and added an short explanation. 🐵

[lacerto]

(...)

[lacerto]

(...)

[Slammer]

2 hours ago, Jens Krebs said:

Uuuuuuuh, that hurts. Please. Don't!
In my opinion and experience, it's always advisable to work in the colourspace that you want to use for your output.

I disagree, using the RGB colorspace until the RIPping process means that you are working with a much larger color gamut. Basically working in CMYK means that you are restricting your gamut from the onset and locking it to a profile. Now, each and every ICC profile describes a colorspace, but this color space is not necessary the one your printer uses, generally a printer will strip your profile from the file and use his own which is constructed from a fingerprint taken from his press and used to calibrate the workflow. This is the same for digital reproductions.

The logic behind this, and I know there is a lot of philosophical discussion on this topic, is that you will get better results giving the printshop, or the printer (as in device) as wide a gamut as possible, the printer (Printshop and digital device) will RIP your file and reduce it to the best possible CMYK outcome for that particular press or printer..

There are a lot of printshops that don´t give a poop and will simply take your file, RIP it after the "Hail Mary" method and give you something that may or may not be a color match. We call something like this "happy colour" and It is literally my job to go to printshops and sort these nightmares out.

[thomaso]

2 hours ago, Slammer said:

I disagree, using the RGB colorspace until the RIPping process means that you are working with a much larger color gamut.

For 100 K you don't need a larger gamut – but instead a color which uses exactly 1 channel (K) only. An RGB color would not cause a separation which ensures a 100 K back.

[Slammer]

15 hours ago, thomaso said:

For 100 K you don't need a larger gamut – but instead a color which uses exactly 1 channel (K) only. An RGB color would not cause a separation which ensures a 100 K back.

Yes it will, all modern RIP´s are able to take a composite or contone RGB file and give you 100%K where 100%K is present, otherwise you would not be able to separate documents coming from MS Word for instance. I have never come across a RIP that was not able to do this, Global graphic´s Harlequin and all the spin-off´s, Kodak EVO, Agfa Apogee, even that nasty thing from Eagle. 

Convert RGB to true black, Some applications use RGB colors for everything, including solid black coded as 0 0 0 setrgbcolor (or 0 0 0 in a DeviceRGB color space). You should choose this option to force the RIP to intercept blacks coded in this way and convert them to (0 0 0 1 in) a CMYK color space.

This means, that if for instance your text or your black line is at 100%K and your images RGB the RIP will interpret CMY and K from the RGB image and give you the K of that image in the same one bit TIFF file as the text or lineart.
I have included the image from a RIP where the box is ticked, as I said, all RIP´s can do this.

 

 

[Stes]

OK. Here's my case. Any volountiers?

Two colours PDF advert placed in AP document.

I've also tried converting and assigning Euroscale Coated v2 profile to this advert in Adobe Illustrator with no success.

2colours.pdf black.afpub

[lacerto]

(...)

 

[Stes]

6 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

Here is your file exported in PDF/X1a:2003. All K100.

black_pdfx1a.pdf 389.57 kB · 0 downloads

Wow! How?! After my exports in all PDF/X presets I get rich black all the time. I'm totally confused.

[lacerto]

(...)

[lacerto]

(...)

[Stes]

9 minutes ago, Slammer said:

Need to know more about your workflow, is this a self created logo? Or a supplied logo? Is it a two colour job done in CMYK? Or K and spotcolour?

Supplied logo. Two colour job in CMYK - after export only M and K are needed.

[lacerto]

(...)

[Slammer]

1 minute ago, Lagarto said:

All these problems go away when Publisher gets the passthrough feature properly implemented. It is so far only in beta and still buggy.

And if your "designer" sends you a CMKY file expecting miracles, slap that person and send them back to design school.