dougdi reacted to wonderings in Affinity products for Linux
They do listen to their users, they are just not doing what you want. This is a business and they owe nothing to anyone. Now with that said it is good for business to have a good relationship with your users obviously. In this case I would say they just do not have the resources to support a 3rd (4th counting iOS) OS for a very small user base. There is a reason Adobe is not on Linux, they are a company with money and resources to spare and they have opted out after market research. This does not mean it will never happen but it is not at a place yet where they think they will make any money (my assumption). I believe the same is for Serif, they are a much much much smaller company with a product still in V1. It is being refined and they are still adding features to V1 and not saving them for a V2 release, which I think in many cases would have been warranted. They have been very generous in my opinion with these feature rich updates.
Not sure what Steam being on Linux has to do with Affinity. Didn't Steam drop one of the major distros of Linux as well last year?
dougdi reacted to LondonSquirrel in Affinity products for Linux
There's not. That's what Linux people have been saying for 20 years. If the market was really large enough, you would see far more commercial software on Linux. There is some, but it is insignificant in comparison to that available on Mac or Windows. And that's what we are talking about here: a company (Affinity) investing its time and money with the intent to make a return on that.
Taking the first result I find when looking for this year's desktop share:
Windows: 86.6%, Mac: 9.2%, Linux: 3.6%.
Why would Affinity waste its time and resources on such a small POTENTIAL market? Not everyone using Linux would buy Affinity.
As stated, I've been in the Linux world for more than 20 years. I've heard all the arguments before, and they are the same arguments which keep coming round. The chicken and the egg. If only xyz company would release their product for Linux... But there are a lot of xyz companies on that list.
I stand by my comments about some of the stupid decisions that the distro maintainers have made over the years. I am not alone in this - the mailing groups are full of contrary opinions. I used to follow them, but grew bored. Instead I wanted to do stuff instead of being involved in arguments over why systemd is better than some other init system. But people did and do (in the Linux world) expend plenty of hot air about this sort of thing all the time.
I would prefer that Affinity work to improve its products with additional features, bug fixes, etc, rather than take on the task of another platform. Jeez, if Affinity did decide to port to Linux, there would be arguments (from the Linux community) about using GTK or QT or wx or whatever. I have no idea what Affinity currently uses (they may even have written their own). But Linux is a minefield for this sort of pointless argument which just gets in the way of actually doing stuff.
dougdi reacted to dominik in Affinity on ChromeOS
Hi @tytus 01UNIT,
(I'm writing the following as a serious respons but also with a twinkle in my eyes)
With all due respect. The last thing I want to see is Google investing in Serif. Do you remember Picasa?
If you want to use Affinity then please use an OS that it was made for. There are three to choose from, already 🙂
dougdi reacted to Patrick Connor in Affinity products for Linux
Welcome to the Serif Affinity forums
It is of course very flattering, and it is clear there would be interest from Linux users. We are currently still focusing all our efforts on the existing supported OS's and also expanding the suite so that Publisher can work on the iPad.
dougdi reacted to taharvey in Affinity for Linux
This ongoing thread cracks me up.
There isn't a real linux desktop market, and its very unlikely to evolve, for multiple well-known reasons. Even Linus has long ago dismissed that the "year of the linux desktop" will ever come. Linux dominates the embedded and headless server space, but isn't a compelling market for users outside of a few developers who don't come up for air above the terminal-editor level. The very culture of the linux core audience, keeps it from developing a canonical full-stack framework and singular OS distro, high quality UI/UX, or attract the non-programmer designer and business talent to ever make the market successful.
Anybody who is betting on a linux market to emerge for consumer software is kidding themselves. Hasn't happen in 25 years, no indicators that the market changing.
dougdi reacted to R C-R in Affinity for Linux
That pretty well sums up the current state of this (& the other related) topic. Basically, ignoring the noise from all sides, various Linux advocates continue to post what amounts to 'it's time to do this now' arguments of various kinds ... & every so often someone from Serif posts what amounts to a 'no, we don't think it is' reply.
dougdi reacted to Don Kal in Affinity products for Linux
Steam works on linux. Time for mac and windows to die has finally come. Evolve or perish. Since I can play on linux, I have absolutely no need for any other system. Proportion of people having work that does not require at least a limited use of linux will decrease over next few decades, because machines will take over most of the manufacturing (the same thing that happened to the agriculture during 19th/20th century in the developed countries). If the Serif choses to go on a dead end path that is their problem. An opportunity for another developer. I would gladly spend the cost equivalent to what I paid for the Affinity, which is useless to me now, on some software that works on linux and can handle complicated files as opposed to the Ink..crush..sc...pleasewait...ape.
dougdi reacted to Requester in Affinity for Linux
Linux is not the big thing, it is a grown Alternative that got mature.
Since Microsoft is making Windows (with Win10) very unpopular with its policies anyway, the desire for real alternatives is greater than ever.
Affinity products on Linux would be a big thing.
dougdi reacted to Medical Officer Bones in Affinity for Linux
Depending on the source, Linux market share falls somewhere under the 2% margin. A checked a couple, and they tend to fall around %1.7-8? It is only part of the story: I think it is not enough to merely take OS market share percentages at face value: that is why I also mentioned that only a subset of Linux users would be interested in a commercial professional design application. Only a fairly small percentage of all users would be interested in investing the time and effort in learning a full-on professional level design application. Most users could not care less.
The Mac platform is far more popular with graphic designers than Windows is, which explains why companies such as Adobe and Affinity invest in a platform which lingers around a deceptively small 10% desktop platform share.
Windows is almost 90% of the desktop market, and while the relative percentage of graphic design users is probably far lower compared to Mac, the brute force of the numbers of users will more than balance out the difference.
Linux has a far lower percentage of graphic design users than Windows AND a tiny market share. Is a market like that viable enough to jump in for Affinity or Adobe? I think both have done market research, checked the numbers, and their current Mac and Windows stats, and decided it is too much of a risk.
I do think that if you are a game or app developer working on a development system that easily exports a Linux version, you would be daft not to cash in on that as long as you develop from the start on deploying on all platforms. But even in that case Linux fragmentation causes headaches to make sure your game / software runs on a broad enough range of Linux systems. And then there's the graphic driver issues between platforms, and Apple's OpenGL deprecation in favour of Metal.
If Affinity code base could be directly converted to Linux, it might be worth it. But as it stands, the Mac and Windows versions use different GUI layers (as I understand it), and Linux would add a third one. Then to realize how long it took for the Affinity team to port to Windows...
It is quite understandable why Serif is avoiding the fragemented Linux desktop platform. I wish it would not be so, but I myself wouldn't put myself in that risky business venture. Perhaps first focus on getting the Mac and Windows version up to version 2 or 3, and then take a second look at the market.
Although at this point I tend to agree with the assertion that Linux is a failed desktop OS. Unless a miracle occurs, or MS and Apple pisses off their global user bases in a dramatic way, this will remain the case.
Linux is extremely successful in other areas, of course. Civilization would come to a standstill if Linux would disappear overnight. But as a mainstream desktop platform for designers? Unfortunately not.
dougdi reacted to Redsandro in Affinity for Linux
You are correct that the Linux market share is the smallest. Looking at the numbers from december last year, Linux has a desktop market share of 2.78%. It's a fraction. However, if you compare it to the MacOS desktop market share of december last year, you see that it is 10.65%. So if MacOS is an interesting market, just be advised that Linux is ~25% their size. Now it's no longer a fraction. It's a quarter.
Besides, I believe the Affinity team has explained that their products consist of one bigger easily portable multi-platform "server" component, and one smaller platform-specific GUI/UX component. Only the latter would need to be ported. They roughly estimated that developing the GUI/UX component for Linux would cost $500,000. When a more serious initiative was started to crowdsource these funds, Affinity decided that they did not want to grow the team for that purpose, but rather focus on the two GUI/UX components they are developing right now (for Windows/OSX). This is a choice and their prerogative, but it was not stated or insinuated that it was because of money.
Corel AfterShot Pro had the same choice. Starting from Corel AfterShot Pro 2, they did port their software to Linux. AfterShot Pro 3 is available for two distro's (rpm based and deb based). I don't know if people from the industry ever run into each other, but perhaps Affinity can ask some Corel folks if it was a good, bad or neutral move, and if they sold more than 3 copies.
dougdi reacted to Medical Officer Bones in Affinity for Linux
@SrPx Your experience is identical to mine. I tried to switch friends and family to Linux, mainly because the only tasks involved were web browsing and a spot of text processing. Almost no-one liked it, and asked for Windows or Mac after a while. The sole exception is my wife, who works on a simple laptop which used to run WIndows 10, and now runs Linux Mint. But the only reason she continues to use it, is because I am always there to help her out with technical issues and updates. Without me, she wouldn't know, and prefer Windows (even though it runs much slower on that machine).
The one thing I HAVE been successful in convincing others to switch to: LibreOffice, Blender, and Krita. I actually got an entire college to adopt Blender for general 3d work, and so far almost every friend or family member is no running LibreOffice, without issues. And Krita has been adopted by various students as well.
But as I stated earlier, and SrPx points out as well, software is only a tiny factor in choosing a desktop platform, or a mobile platform It does indeed run deeper.
dougdi reacted to Medical Officer Bones in Affinity for Linux
This is anecdotal. In two decades of working with web/graphic/screen/game designers and developers (both Europe and North America) and teaching thousands of students from all over the globe, I perhaps saw a handful of Linux users. In the past five years I haven't encountered any student in a digital design related program using Linux.
It's either Mac or Windows for the by far majority of these type of users, simple as that. Young design students just do not see Linux as an alternative. I have had trouble enough to get them to try open source alternatives like Krita!
That's not saying I would not like to see Adobe and Affinity release their software on Linux, far from that. I think if they would, Linux would become a more attractive choice for a certain sub-set of designers. I would make the switch, for example. But the fact is, no-one I've ever met and worked with in graphic/screen/mobile/web design related fields worked with the Linux platform. And I myself am very much the exception: barring one or two people, I haven't spoken to any designers who would even consider the switch to Linux (most don't even know what "Linux" is!).
I agree it's a bit of the chicken and the egg problem. But that doesn't take away the issue that the Linux desktop space is tiny compared to Windows and Mac, and the fact that the desktop/laptop design folks prefer Mac and Windows. Or that the Linux desktop space is so terribly fragmented. Even Linus admitted last year (more or less) that Linux as a desktop platform is its own worst enemy because of the fragmentation. As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, it would make more sense to invest in a ChromeOS version.
Linux in various shapes and forms is super-wide adopted all over the world in many situations, far more than either Windows or Mac; except for mainstream desktop users and certainly not in the world of graphic/web/general design.
Tiny adoption rate as a platform & tiny subset of target users = no hope in heck to earn back your investment over a semi-long term.
dougdi reacted to Keith Reeder in Affinity for Linux
Here we go again - this completely unquantified, unquantifiable "a lot".
No smart business makes investment commitments on the basis of such speculative, uninformed, questionable market estimates.
Sarcasm or not, good grief. What possible logic is there to such a ridiculous speculation? Seriously - what does MS gain by doing something like that?
Has your tinfoil hat fallen off?
Linux zealots aren't "problem solvers" in my experience - just a bunch of selfish, disruptive, conspiracy theorist malcontents who are never happy, and who think the world owes them something.
dougdi reacted to Old Bruce in Affinity for Linux
You are seeing what you want to see, you need to accept that it isn't going to happen.
Those are three statements.
"Affinity team say it's not likely" Full Stop.
It isn't going to happen.
I do enjoy these little discussions only because I have an odd sense of humour. edited to fix grammar.
dougdi reacted to Solly in Affinity for Linux
I have been using GNU/Linux since version 0.99 on DOS based hardware. I am very comfortable with the FOSS logic and goals. I am becoming more and more uncomfortable with a tone I am picking up that keeps asking the same question when the answer is no from a company. Possible solutions to the answer of no:
Pool resources and buy control of the company—make it yours. Pool resources and start a new company to create the product your way. Join a FOSS project and help it create a product that meets your expectations. Create a new FOSS project that will create the product of your dreams. If able, roll your own software and be in total control. I am an old guy thinking old ways: Don't keep banging against a brick wall expecting to change the wall. Work around the wall, be clever, create attractive ideas. Make your ideas so attractive that those behind the wall will come out and join you.
Please stop shouting at the wall—the wall will not respond.
I feel better now, thank you for the space to vent my frustration,
dougdi reacted to toltec in Affinity products for Linux
"able to work in any computer." Wouldn't work on the last two computers I tried. (Mint).
And define "work". Sure, the OS may work but it will not run useful software like Microsoft Office (well, let's say compatible) Adobe, Quark or Affinity. If might work for geeks but it certainly doesn't work for Joe Public and Mrs average user. So it doesn't work. In ten+ years I've only ever found it useful for internet browsing.
"More Clever Companies". If "clever companies are the ones that make lots of money, Microsoft, Apple, Adobe and Quark are quite clever. And they don't use Linux. Funny that !
All Linux users talk about how much better their OS is. But "normal" people buy computers not to fiddle about with the OS but to run good software, like Affinity or Adobe. So ultimately, Windows or MacOS is much better that Linux.
dougdi reacted to toltec in Affinity products for Linux
Generally, if 99% of people are in agreement, it is true.
That makes one sale, maybe two. The culture of Linux seems more about getting something for nothing, rather than paying. There are a number of users here who seem to expect Affinity to be full Photoshop, but on the cheap. My opinion would be that Serif's main market is the millions of keen amateurs who want to improve their smartphone pictures. Not the high end professional users who need Photoshop, Lightroom etc. I think Serif will probably get there in time, but not for a while.
So how many enthusiast users would spend £500 pounds ?
How would you solve printer drivers, icc profiles, raw converters, lenses, green screen software, specialist silk screen separation software DAM software and the fact Linux is so user unfriendly ? And by user friendly I mean being able to go into a retail shop like PC World (UK) and buy a laptop with Linux on it. And, just as importantly, take it back when it goes wrong.
I still think Linux is for geeks who like to spend more time playing with the operating system than using the computer to do stuff. Mostly ! Otherwise why go on about it so much ?
I know I have spent more far time playing with Linux than I ever have using a Linux based computer to produce anything.
If you are really serious about a quality editor on Linux, why not pay the writers of Gimp £500 to improve their software? Get are few thousand Linux users to do that and there you are. You won't need to try so hard to convince them and they are already two thirds of the way there. Maybe more.