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TomJr

line spacing in AD (and AP)

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I had to create a badge for a billboard, recreating one sent from a client for placement. So I decided to use Designer for the art.

Although the key commands for adjusting line spacing (called Paragraph Spacing in the Text menu) is <opt><up arrow><down arrow>, they would not move the text at all. Seems to also happen in Photo as well. Works fine in Publisher,  however.

Unless I've missed something, manually typing a value is far less efficient than using the key command. Any ideas?

I've posted this in the Photo forum as well. Thanks!

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Hi TomJr,

Could you attach a video showing it working in Publisher and not working in Designer please? If you could do it with the Mac on-screen keyboard that will be helpful. This is working for me in Designer! Is it the same document you are trying to edit, or a different one? If possible could you attach the documents please?

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7 hours ago, Sean P said:

Hi TomJr,

Could you attach a video showing it working in Publisher and not working in Designer please? If you could do it with the Mac on-screen keyboard that will be helpful. This is working for me in Designer! Is it the same document you are trying to edit, or a different one? If possible could you attach the documents please?

Sean,

Sorry for the delay, just caught your response. I began to do a video, with new docs on all Affinity products, and the key command works fine....so now I was really wondering...

So I went back to my original doc in Affinity Photo, and found I had a value of 30 in the Character/Positioning and Transform/Leading Override. Once I changed the value to Auto, I was able to use the Key Command. So it appears that locks in any leading without begin able to adjust it. Looks like user error on my part. Sorry about that!

The doc is too big to attach here, but hope my explanation is clear. Thanks! I do enjoy these products!

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9 hours ago, TomJr said:

Sean,

Sorry for the delay, just caught your response. I began to do a video, with new docs on all Affinity products, and the key command works fine....so now I was really wondering...

So I went back to my original doc in Affinity Photo, and found I had a value of 30 in the Character/Positioning and Transform/Leading Override. Once I changed the value to Auto, I was able to use the Key Command. So it appears that locks in any leading without begin able to adjust it. Looks like user error on my part. Sorry about that!

The doc is too big to attach here, but hope my explanation is clear. Thanks! I do enjoy these products!

That's not a problem and it does indeed make sense! The shortcut actually adjusts the Paragraph Leading value in the Paragraph Panel. The Character Panel's Leading Override will reflect what leading value is being used. When set to Auto it will use the Paragraph's value and places it inside brackets to represent it is using that value.

However as you manually put an override in that will overrides the Paragraph Leading which makes it appear as though the shortcut doesn't work.

Glad you're enjoying the products :)

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@Sean P

What is the use case for having the leading value in the Character panel serve as an override to the values in the Paragraph panel, as opposed to just being an alternative input field for specifying paragraph leading?

I find the override behavior of the leading in the Character panel to be an annoyance. I can't think why it is designed to behave that way.

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The leading value is an attribute applied to the entire paragraph, where as the override is applied on a character by character basis where it might need tweaking in certain places where other fonts or styles are used.

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@Sean P

In all the text I've ever set, I've never had the need to change leading on a character basis. I've used baseline shift to shift characters up or down, but leading is purely a paragraph attribute.

I don't understand the "override" behavior in the Characters panel, and wish there were an option to turn that behavior off.

 

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2 hours ago, Mark Oehlschlager said:

wish there were an option to turn that behavior off.

Actually it is set off by default: it shows a value in round brackets ( ) to make clear that it is off and its value is taken from the paragraph setting.

The use for an override can occur for instance if you mix sizes within a text block (which also can occur with a different font even in same size).

For instance also in a forums browser window: if I paste an image or increase font size then the leading is influenced:


Sample text line with continuous font size.
Sample text line with continuous font size.
Sample text line with varying font size. <– Only this change of size also influences the leading. There you can apply override to correct that leading in Affinity.
Sample text line with continuous font size.
Sample text line with continuous font size.
Sample text line with continuous font size.

Different to baseline shift (which reacts for selected glyphs only) the leading override reacts for the complete line and not only to the selected/assigned glyphs. That also means even if the text flow changes the complete line, and only that, with this word always will automatically be corrected.


macOS 10.12.6,  Macbook Pro 15" + Eizo 24"

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@thomaso

Actually, one cannot turn the behavior off. If one attempts to set leading in the Character panel, it is always interpreted as an override of the value set in the Paragraph panel. My desire is for the leading fields in both Character and Paragraph panel to always be synchronized.

Regarding the unusual use case you illustrated for me, I suppose for uniquely expressive typography (for poetry, or some other artistic purpose) one might intentionally disrupt the regular paragraph leading as you have done. However, one can also simply apply the unusual body size and leading in the form of a characters style. It doesn't require the leading field in the Character panel to behave as an override.

Anyway, I still wish there were a preference toggle to disable the override behavior of the leading field in the Character panel.

 

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7 hours ago, Mark Oehlschlager said:

In all the text I've ever set, I've never had the need to change leading on a character basis. I've used baseline shift to shift characters up or down, but leading is purely a paragraph attribute. 

It is just an additional option. Not a demanded use at all.
For different ways of thinking and working. "Viele Wege führen nach Rom", auch im DTP – dort besonders viele in Affinity :) wodurch Usern mehr Flexibilität ermöglicht wird.

Just keep in mind that the leading in character panel is rather for single lines only – whereas the leading in paragraph panel is for complete paragraphs, because it is "purely a paragraph attribute". (as space before and after are, too)

If you simply do not touch that field in character panel nothing can go weird.


p.s.: streng genommen sind einige Parameter in der Zeichen-Palette, die imho ins Paragraph panel gehören, vor allem Schriftart & -schnitt, Schriftgröße, Laufweite (diverse), alle Sprach-Parameter, hm, eigentlich fast alle Paramter aus dem Character panel betreffen immer Absätze, manchmal sogar ein komplettes Buch.


macOS 10.12.6,  Macbook Pro 15" + Eizo 24"

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29 minutes ago, Mark Oehlschlager said:

If one attempts to set leading in the Character panel, it is always interpreted as an override of the value set in the Paragraph panel. My desire is for the leading fields in both Character and Paragraph panel to always be synchronized.

It is not interpreted as an override. It is defined as an override. If you don't want to override the paragraph leading value set in the Paragraph panel, or by a paragraph style, then just don't use the value in the Character panel.


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1903 (18362.356), 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00Gz, GeForce GTX 970
Affinity Photo 1.7.3.481 and 1.8.0.486 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.7.3.481 and 1.8.0.486 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.7.3.481 and 1.7.3.475 Beta

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@walt.farrell

The point is that this designed behavior is unnecessary (as a character style can take care of any unorthodox, expressive setting), is a source of confusion, and produces small but annoying inefficiencies for the user having to toggle to the Paragraph panel and back to set leading when it should be possible to set leading in the Character panel. As much as I resent Adobe for their software rental policy, I much prefer their Character and Paragraph panel design for handling leading.

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On 9/19/2019 at 4:40 AM, Sean P said:

That's not a problem and it does indeed make sense! The shortcut actually adjusts the Paragraph Leading value in the Paragraph Panel. The Character Panel's Leading Override will reflect what leading value is being used. When set to Auto it will use the Paragraph's value and places it inside brackets to represent it is using that value.

However as you manually put an override in that will overrides the Paragraph Leading which makes it appear as though the shortcut doesn't work.

Glad you're enjoying the products :)

Sean,

In all honesty, I'm agreeing with Mark on this. Just didn't know it works that way, and it was becoming frustrating. Walt is also correct that it is DEFINED as an override.

Might just be the way I'm used to doing things from "other" software.

What I'm saying is that if I need a specific amount of leading on a paragraph, I can simply create a Paragraph Style for that, and make twiddly adjustments locally when necessary. That's where those key commands for those adjustments come in handy.

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18 minutes ago, TomJr said:

What I'm saying is that if I need a specific amount of leading on a paragraph, I can simply create a Paragraph Style for that

Or for a single use situation like that, just adjust the leading in the Context Toolbar. No need for a style, and no need to use the Character panel or the Paragraph panel.


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1903 (18362.356), 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00Gz, GeForce GTX 970
Affinity Photo 1.7.3.481 and 1.8.0.486 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.7.3.481 and 1.8.0.486 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.7.3.481 and 1.7.3.475 Beta

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19 hours ago, Mark Oehlschlager said:

inefficiencies for the user having to toggle to the Paragraph panel and back to set leading when it should be possible to set leading in the Character panel. (...) Adobe (...) prefer their Character and Paragraph panel design for handling leading. 

Mark, as far I understand you would prefer the leading to be a field in character panel only (as in ID).
Then can't you simply avoid the annoyance by only using the override leading for ALL of your leadings? (and both ignore the word 'override' + never touch the leading in P panel, as if it wouldn't exist)

Apparently you may define and save a specific override leading even within a Paragraph style:

1060691354_leadingoverrideasParagraphstyle.jpg.711de09cb0f59d99e44ea4e4b9dd4138.jpg

 


macOS 10.12.6,  Macbook Pro 15" + Eizo 24"

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@thomaso

Yes, I do prefer the Adobe solution of offering just a single leading field in the Character panel. It offers clarity to the user. Select a word, phrase, or paragraph, and one can simply consult the singular leading field to confirm what leading is currently applied to that particular word, phrase, or paragraph. Affinity's implementation of a "Leading Override" field in the Character panel is unnecessary and just leads to confusion.

One *could* use the "Leading Override" field in the Character panel exclusively, and ignore the "Leading" field in the Paragraph panel in an attempt to hack the system and work as if there were only one leading control field, but it's an unsatisfactory hack that can lead to further confusion when files are worked on with others in a collaborative workflow.

My preference is for there to be one leading field in the Character panel. Either that, or for the leading field in both the Character and Paragraph panels to be synchronized – essentially the same field.

 

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