Running header issues

[MikeTO]

Running headers work well for paragraph styles such as Heading 1, 2 and for character styles and I think that's what all of us tried when this feature came out. But they don't work well for a paragraph style that is used in more than one paragraph in a row. And they don't work with paragraph attributes that apply character styles indirectly.

1. If the RH field is set to a character style that is used by Initial Words, Drop Cap, or Bullets and Numbering, the RH field will be unable to find it. For example, set Initial Words or Drop Caps to Strong and set the RH field to Strong. It would be nice if this worked but there is a workaround (target a paragraph style with a delimiter) so it's okay. Except that the workaround doesn't work right now due to #2.

2. The RH field won't work if it's set to the same paragraph style as the paragraphs before/after it (e.g., Body). The field can find the first on page 1 but it will report the first on page 2 as the last on page 1. The field can find the first on page 2 but it stops working after that. I've attached a test document that shows this. It's a bit overly complicated since I was trying to narrow this down. The top half of the pages have a story in master frames while the bottom half has a similar story in doc page frames - there was no difference but I left it this way to demonstrate it.

rh.afpub

3. A blank line in the RH style will be used by running header. Not technically a bug, but will confuse beginners who use blank lines between paragraphs. It confused me, too. 🙂 Create RH's for first and last on page, set to Body. Type some text in Body. Enter a blank paragraph before the last paragraph and the last on page RH will be blank.

4. A blank line in the RH style before the last use of the style on the page will be included in the RH. Again not technically a bug. Type a blank line in the RH style and then type a line of real text in the RH style. The RH will pick up the blank line and the line of text together. Perhaps the RH field should automatically terminate at a paragraph break.

5. Rename style breaks running header. I think this was just an oversight. Create new doc, type a line in Heading 1, add a running header with default settings which will pick up the Heading 1. Rename Heading 1 to Test - the running header will now be set to No Style. I think this was just an oversight.

I did this testing based on this feedback thread:

 

Edited January 31 by MikeTO
forgot the attachment

[MikeTO]

BTW for those looking for a workaround, you can make it work if you intersperse the paragraph style used by the Running Header with paragraphs formatted with a different style. So if the RH field is set to Body, create a Body 2 style and add a blank line set to Body 2 between every Body paragraph. You would need to reduce the Space Before or After for Body so that this didn't change the appearance of your document but it will work.

[Old Bruce]

The problem is the same as for Find and Replace. If we have a Character Style My Initial Words Character and use that for a Paragraph Style Initial Words Paragraph then the My Initial Words Character  won't be picked up by Find and Replace searching for some text with My Initial Words Character  as a character style. We have to search for the first few words in Initial Words Paragraph and apply the My Initial Words Character to them, again. Then we can use the Running Header's ability to use the Character Style My Initial Words Character to see the Apples, grapes Potatoes etc.

I would guess this is a bug. The application does not see the text with the applied Character Style if it is used in a Paragraph Style using Drop Caps or Initial words. Here is a shot with the S selected, the drop cap uses Red Italic character style. Note that it is not red nor italic in the Context toolbar. Find and replace won't see it nor will the Running Header. Unless and until we replace it manually.

 and here is the file drop cap and initial words.afpub

drop cap and initial words.afpub

[Lee D]

@MikeTOI've logged it to be looked into.

[Hangman]

@MikeTO,

On 1/31/2024 at 1:37 AM, MikeTO said:

1. If the RH field is set to a character style that is used by Initial Words, Drop Cap, or Bullets and Numbering, the RH field will be unable to find it. For example, set Initial Words or Drop Caps to Strong and set the RH field to Strong. It would be nice if this worked but there is a workaround (target a paragraph style with a delimiter) so it's okay. Except that the workaround doesn't work right now due to #2.

I'm not seeing any obvious issue here (unless I'm doing something differently)...

Initial Words

Same with Drop Caps, Bullets and Numbering

On 1/31/2024 at 1:37 AM, MikeTO said:

2. The RH field won't work if it's set to the same paragraph style as the paragraphs before/after it (e.g., Body). The field can find the first on page 1 but it will report the first on page 2 as the last on page 1. The field can find the first on page 2 but it stops working after that. I've attached a test document that shows this. It's a bit overly complicated since I was trying to narrow this down. The top half of the pages have a story in master frames while the bottom half has a similar story in doc page frames - there was no difference but I left it this way to demonstrate it.

There is an issue here which in part, appears to relate to a scenario when a paragraph spans two pages or text frames, though your sample file seems to be doing the opposite...

It gets even stranger when using 'Last on Page' in as much as it will select text mid-paragraph instead of the initial words (when using the Initial Words text style)... I've logged this as a separate issue here...

 

Last on Page When Paragraph Spans Text Frames over Two Pages

On 1/31/2024 at 1:37 AM, MikeTO said:

3. A blank line in the RH style will be used by running header. Not technically a bug, but will confuse beginners who use blank lines between paragraphs. It confused me, too. 🙂 Create RH's for first and last on page, set to Body. Type some text in Body. Enter a blank paragraph before the last paragraph and the last on page RH will be blank.

I'm seeing possibly a bigger or slightly different issue here, it doesn't seem to make any difference whether or not there is a blank paragraph before the last paragraph... When specifically using the Body text style for Running Headers with Body set to 'First' and 'Last on page', even without a blank paragraph before the last paragraph I get no Running Headers at all for 'First on page' and intermittent Running Headers for 'Last on page'...

On 1/31/2024 at 1:37 AM, MikeTO said:

4. A blank line in the RH style before the last use of the style on the page will be included in the RH. Again not technically a bug. Type a blank line in the RH style and then type a line of real text in the RH style. The RH will pick up the blank line and the line of text together. Perhaps the RH field should automatically terminate at a paragraph break.

Agree this is not technically a bug, it's just honouring how you've set the Running Header...

 

On 1/31/2024 at 1:37 AM, MikeTO said:

5. Rename style breaks running header. I think this was just an oversight. Create new doc, type a line in Heading 1, add a running header with default settings which will pick up the Heading 1. Rename Heading 1 to Test - the running header will now be set to No Style. I think this was just an oversight.

Agree that this looks like an oversight... I can't see any logical reason for the Running Header Style not to update to reflect the name change...

[MikeTO]

12 hours ago, Hangman said:

I'm not seeing any obvious issue here (unless I'm doing something differently)...

You're setting the RH to a paragraph style. I was reporting that it doesn't work if the RH field is set to a character style that is used by drop caps, initial words, or bullets and numbering. Set the RH field to Strong and then use Strong in Drop Caps, Initial Words, or Bullets and Numbering and it won't work.

[Hangman]

45 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

You're setting the RH to a paragraph style. I was reporting that it doesn't work if the RH field is set to a character style that is used by drop caps, initial words, or bullets and numbering. Set the RH field to Strong and then use Strong in Drop Caps, Initial Words, or Bullets and Numbering and it won't work.

Maybe I'm still missing something... RH field is set to Strong and Strong is used in Initial Words...

[Oufti]

2 hours ago, Hangman said:

Maybe I'm still missing something... RH field is set to Strong and Strong is used in Initial Words...

Yes but it also looks like the whole text paragraph is set to "Strong" in your screencast, which explains it behaves as intended. 

To see the problem:

1. In your last test, set the whole text to No style, both for characters and paragraphs,
2. Apply "Initial Words" paragraph style, set to use the "Strong" format. [Edit: or tick just Initial words in the paragraph panel, it'll be the same.]
3. Select first words and look:  
4. Contextual toolbar still shows "No style" for characters, not "Strong" – even if the first words are formatted as wanted, with bold and so on.
5. The running headers remain empty. 

 

In the example below, I 've also applied manually the Strong character style to other words.
These are then the string recorded in the RH (green arrows), and not the first words of the paragraphs.

To summarise, even if initial words are formatted according to the specifications of the Strong style they're not labelled as owning this Strong character style (in red), thus not recognised as candidates for the running header.  

Edited February 6 by Oufti

[MikeTO]

You're editing the Initial Words paragraph style, just apply initial words or drop cap directly to the text. Here's a demo of the bug.

 

 

[Hangman]

Thanks both for the clarification and yes, I now see what you're saying though my question would be this...

Bearing in mind that Drop Caps, Initial Words and Bullets and Numbering are all Paragraph formatting options, are Emphasis, Strong and Strong Emphasis not unique, font agnostic formatting characteristics of a paragraph, 'unique' being the operative word, i.e.,

Emphasis - Style settings | Italic: On
Strong - Style settings | Font weight: Bold
Strong Emphasis - Style settings | Strong + Italic: On

While you can apply a Character Style to a Running Header, you can't for example control the 'Initial words' max word count or the 'End Character' for the Character Style since these are Paragraph only characteristics...

[MikeTO]

I don't think it matters to the average user, including the person who asked the question that sparked this. They select char style X in initial words and expect that they should be able to select that char style in the RH.

[Hangman]

I was more asking the question from the point of view of whether this is 'by design' or a 'bug'...

[MikeTO]

It's just an oversight, the code that checks the page for styles wasn't written to look for styles applied indirectly. But it doesn't matter, from a user perspective, if you can choose it from a list then it needs to work.

 

[Affinity Info Bot]

The issue "Running headers and paragraph style that is used in more than one paragraph in a row." (REF: AF-1940) has been fixed by the developers in internal build "2.5.0.2317".
This fix should soon be available as a customer beta and is planned for inclusion in the next customer release.
Customer beta builds are announced here and you can participate by following these instructions.
If you still experience this problem once you are using that build version (or later) please reply to this thread including @Affinity Info Bot to notify us.