Switching an object's frame size to include its full dimensions, including stroke?

[symmetry_feature]

Searched through the forums, found someone else's single workaround but no reference to such a setting, read through Settings and document setup. I thought it would be a setting for Transform but that doesn't seem to be the case. I'm working on an enamel pin design and it's difficult to get the full dimensions of a pin (or make them fit a dimension) when I have to either constantly commit the outer stroke to vectors or some other workaround. Difficult to keep nondestructive and it can be a lot of extra unnecessary work.

[Aammppaa]

Not sure I fully understand your situation, but can't you align your stroke to the inside of your shape (via the Strokes panel) so that the dimension remains the same? 

 

If I've not properly understood, could you provide an example file/image? 

[symmetry_feature]

Here's a series of examples for various options (random character chosen, this is a font A, not someone's specific logo):

In other words, a setting that measures the dimensions of the entire shape, stroke included, is what I am looking for. The width of both object, stroke (separately, for production reasons), and overall object (again, for production reasons), are important. (I'm only really including the third option as a permutation of the settings; it's come in handy for original art but I'm not suggesting it's a fix).

In the instance of actually getting someone's vectors, this is extra important-- the pre-existing form of the logo will probably have aligned-to-center stroke lines and that won't be something that you can just decide not to follow.

Caveat about the enamel pin example: of course those cutouts are a bit ridiculous, but since I wanted an example addressing how outlines are achieved, I'm not bothering with that, it's just not relevant.

Edited December 3, 2023 by symmetry_feature
addressing aspects of my example that aren't affected by the thing I'm looking for

[Old Bruce]

Once the stroke is the right width Expand it and place it behind. Use the Centred option, draw it behind and make it twice the width you need for the "enamel". Now if you group the two items, the expanded stroke and the logo you'll have the correct bounding box.

[thomaso]

Workaround: In AD create the stroke as extended fill using the Contour Tool:

Convert this to curves + apply the stroke inside. The bounding box will be as wanted:

[symmetry_feature]

The way that alters the curves isn't really an option for me.

There is no full-size measurement option?

[thomaso]

I understand a curve as single line with no width. Therefore it needs a stroke (or fill) to appear while the curve itself remains the same and so does its bounding box.

Workaround: calculate curve's bounding box size + 2x stroke width = total size.
(if you deactivate in Preferences > User Interface > Show Lines in points then the stroke width gets displayed in your document's unit)

Or: @Old Bruce's way simplified: just "Expand stroke" to get the total object dimension as bounding box.

Or: rasterize.

[loukash]

12 hours ago, symmetry_feature said:

There is no full-size measurement option?

• I just checked InDesign CS5.5, and it behaves exactly the same as Affinity. 
• Whereas Illustrator CS5 keeps the original vector path "as is" but it changes the X,Y values and thus the bounding box based on whether the stroke is inside, outside or centered. That would be what you'd like. But I remember that it used to annoy me to no end because on the other hand, if you want to e.g. snap to a guide, it still snaps to the path, not to the bounding box. No idea if it was a bug or "by design", but it was a major p.i.t.a. in any case. 

So for consistency (and my sanity) sake, I actually prefer the Affinity (and InDesign) method.  
If the stroke needs to be handled and measured separately, I'm simply expanding the stroke and then group.

[lacerto]

2 hours ago, loukash said:

I just checked InDesign CS5.5, and it behaves exactly the same as Affinity. 

Then it must have changed in CS6. InDesign seems to align to visual bounding boxes (rather than the stroke alignment point), but allows the user to specify whether strokes are included in the dimensions, while Illustrator (similarly as Affinity apps) aligns -- when doing manual aligning with mouse -- to stroke alignment point, but similarly as InDesign, allows the user to specify whether strokes are included in the dimensions or not. If preview bounds are NOT used, aligning done in the Align panel will be done according to stroke alignment point, otherwise according to preview bounds. I think that ID and AI use identical object model but just have a bit different UI implementations, but both apps allow the user to decide how objects with strokes are dimensioned, and how they are aligned. There are no such options in Affinity apps.

[loukash]

31 minutes ago, lacerto said:

allows the user to specify whether strokes are included in the dimensions

Yeah, that could be it. (Much like I've always wanted Leading to be a paragraph attribute, and not the default character attribute…)  I just may have forgotten that it's an option. (Note to self: look up again)

33 minutes ago, lacerto said:

while Illustrator (similarly as Affinity apps) aligns -- when doing manual aligning with mouse -- to stroke alignment point, but similarly as InDesign, allows the user to specify whether strokes are included in the dimensions or not

Hm… I'll have to double check whether this was already possible in CS5, but I don't think so.

36 minutes ago, lacerto said:

I think that ID and AI use identical object model

Well, in CS5.x it was still a hit or miss. Way too often I ended up with a PDF being embeded when I tried to paste something from AI to ID.
But never mind, that's off topic.
(While at the same time I can't praise enough Serif's groundbreaking idea of their universal document format!)

 

[lacerto]

1 hour ago, loukash said:

Hm… I'll have to double check whether this was already possible in CS5, but I don't think so.

I checked online documentation for CS4 and these features were already there, and very probably already earlier. Illustrator has the setting under Preferences > General, and in the context menu of the Align panel. InDesign has them in the context menu of the Transform panel. The alignment behavior is different in the apps, Illustrator as a technical drawing software allowing more choices.

[loukash]

17 minutes ago, lacerto said:

Illustrator has the setting under Preferences > General

Oh.
So obviously that's what "Vorschaubegrenzungen verwenden" does. In all those years, I never figured out… duh. 

[loukash]

So, now that we've cleared that, I, for one, would actually welcome such an option in Affinity. It can be useful at times. Ideally as a button in the Move tool context toolbar, akin to the Node tool's "Selection box from curves".

[symmetry_feature]

yes, I'd like that option as well. A curve can be without breadth in the mathematical sense, but a vector object can be produced as a physical object and the dimensions of that thing do matter for what I'm using said vectors for. Since that creeps into feature request, should I take that there?

[loukash]

31 minutes ago, symmetry_feature said:

Since that creeps into feature request, should I take that there?

For sure!  

What you can do as a workaround for the time being:

1. duplicate, leave the original alone, don't move either one 
2. expand stroke of the duplicate = two separate curve objects with fill
3. select both → Geometry → boolean Add = one object (plus the original still below, untouched!)
4. Geometry → Fill Holes, if any
5. remove fill = now you have a completely blank transparent Curve object where the curve follows the exact stroke outline of the original
6. nest your original inside
7. select the parent object = dimensions with stroke
8. double click to select the child object = dimensions of the original curve bounding box

As long as "Lock Children" is unchecked, the child object will follow the basic transformations of the parent object; except shearing where the stroke distortion won't match the parent outline curve distortion. Also, if there's any stroke pressure in the original, the expanded outline won't match perfectly either (known bug).

This was just a quick test, so now experiment yourself!