Problems with BLUE LEDs in RAW files

[calebcudjoe]

I shoot sony and have had this issue with multiple sony cams, a6100, a6400, a7ii, a7iiii, a7iv

I've had this issue in AP v1 as well

Researching for a solution I came across fuji cams having a similar issue (in the past at least)

I also came across the option to use a different RAW engine for something else but I only have Serif Labs as my RAW engine option.

I didnt record it but I'v tried all the available colour profile options and none of them made a difference.

I'm not sure that this happens with blue tinted tungten/ tube lights, I've used blue gels on strobes and havent noticed if i think back

GPU is my renderer

acceleration is on

Video has audio as well but to explain:

Blue lights appear super-saturated with no apparent detail. The only work around that maintains the proper rolloff, saturation, luminance etc is the adjust the white balance to an unnatural level and then bring it back once developed. Since it doesnt happen with other coloured LEDs I believe its a bug/ on the development end hence im reporting it.

 

 

 

[Dan C]

Hi calebcudjoe,

Could you possibly send the RAW file to this location for testing: https://www.dropbox.com/request/Ap1LfjCrGRN5nFRZBHC0

Lee

[calebcudjoe]

I uploaded files. Uploaded a few extra files. 1 of the files shows hanging xmas lights where the yellow ones render/ display without any issue but what i must assume are the same type of light except blue renders all messed up

[calebcudjoe]

i forgot to mention in the video, I also had to decrease the vibrance to manage the lights

[Dan C]

In Settings > Assistant > Develop Assistant >

Change Tone curve to Take no action

You should find that this gives you the results you were expecting

Lee.

 

 

[calebcudjoe]

All of those setting are off or set to "take no action" as I like my RAW files flat and it oversaturates the blues

[Dan C]

Though a little tricky to remove using RAW adjustments alone, the blue light is possible to remove once developed.

Strong blue light (especially LED) will always cause a camera issues, those issues are likely automatically countered in Sony's own software during initial processing as they know exactly how their camera will behave with it.

I tested these images in lightroom and encountered the exact issue, though with lightroom only doing RAW processing, they've added some tools like their HSL/Colour adjustments which can be used to counter the blue LED affect, whereas in our software you have the benefit of processing the image much further once developed.

As you can see from this quick edit with no local adjustments, the blue light is no longer an issue.

Lee

 

[calebcudjoe]

BUT it is an issue. The light was blue. I want to show the blue light in the picture, along with the natural colours.. I have a work around already just wondering if it's possible to develop a solution where there is no need for a work around, especially when the work around involves skewing all the other colours like this.

 

[Dan C]

My example above is an exaggerated example, you don't need to go this far. As explained, the RAW file contains this information in the way it presents, and will need to be corrected post develop due to it's extreme nature. As we have non destructive RAW editing, and you can bring out your image with the full dynamic range, this should not be an issue.

It's not a workaround, it's working around the deficiencies in an image. 

Lee

[NotMyFault]

We may need to talk about expectations. 

Affinity is not in a position to provide the exact same results of RAW converters from Camera brands or other app vendors which may have contractual relations to Camera vendors (pay for getting access to protected information).

There is a lot of secret sauce, partially protected legally by patents and other instruments, partially protected technically by encrypting metadata, unavailable to Affinity.

You can use the Serif RAW engine as convenient option for non-critical tasks. In more complex or critical cases like this, simply use the Camera vendors RAW developer, export as TIFF, and continue in Photo for the creative edits.

On Apple devices, try switching to Apple RAW which can provide better results in some cases.

 

[calebcudjoe]

6 hours ago, Lee_T said:

My example above is an exaggerated example, you don't need to go this far. As explained, the RAW file contains this information in the way it presents, and will need to be corrected post develop due to it's extreme nature. As we have non destructive RAW editing, and you can bring out your image with the full dynamic range, this should not be an issue.

It's not a workaround, it's working around the deficiencies in an image. 

Lee

if you get some time, can you show an example of an edit where you maintain the blue directly out of develop persona? maybe your method is better than mine

[calebcudjoe]

is there a way to put the develop persona into a 16bit mode/ colour space? this seems to solve the issue with the over saturated blues.when i convert my raw file to 16bit tiff the blue is displayin without any issue in AP and AP2

[calebcudjoe]

same photo as a tiff for reference

4_200889.TIF

[NotMyFault]

12 hours ago, calebcudjoe said:

is there a way to put the develop persona into a 16bit mode/ colour space? this seems to solve the issue with the over saturated blues.when i convert my raw file to 16bit tiff the blue is displayin without any issue in AP and AP2

No, makes no sense.

Develop Persona is always 32 bit, but it converts to the selected (in develop assistant) color space and bit depth when pressing „develop“.

So the develop persona actually is handling this conversion process.

[Archiman]

I hope this gets fixed; it makes the workflow very inconvenient

[calebcudjoe]

By far the best way i've found to fix this issue is by using selective colour. since the issue is magenta being read poorly by AP and photo and video editors in general, then you just need to remove excess magenta from the image. when red appears to be messed up it's actually being converted as magenta in AP so if you go to magenta on selective colour and reduce magenta ( ie add green) it should fix it, similarly, when blue appears mesed up it's actually magenta in the blue so again if you reduce magenta it should fix it. adjust these two till it looks like the colour of the light/ till the super saturation disappears. iyou can tweak either of these further by adjusting the luminance of the channels left as well as blue saturation an HSL layer. if the colour is still off adjust it however you feel like from there

 

[Ldina]

On 6/28/2023 at 4:17 AM, NotMyFault said:

On Apple devices, try switching to Apple RAW which can provide better results in some cases.

@NotMyFault You're right...what a difference! Apple RAW works better on bright, blue/cyan LEDs and greatly reduces the magenta coloration. Thanks for that tip!

[Bit Disappointed]

A RAW file with the issue quite visible and prominent would be a good starting point for advice and troubleshooting.

[calebcudjoe]

49 minutes ago, Bit Disappointed said:

A RAW file with the issue quite visible and prominent would be a good starting point for advice and troubleshooting.

anyone searching this issue will likely have files of their own but here4_103700.ARW

[Ldina]

I was hesitant to upload my 'blue LED' images for two reasons...

1. I didn't want to steal this thread and lead it in another direction (though there are certainly similarities). The OP is using a Sony camera and mine is a Canon 5Dmk2.

2. I also figured my RAW capture might be misleading because the blue LEDs on my espresso machine are overexposed and this image might not be a totally reliable test. I'm not sure how the develop persona and the various raw engines deal with recovery of clipped highlights, probably some estimates and interpolation going on. 

Still, my magenta cast with bright blue LEDs is similar, so here it is. 

I developed the OP's Sony image using the Develop Persona, using both Serif's RAW engine and Apple's RAW engine. In each case, I used 16 bit and set the Tone Curve to "Take No Action" for a more conservative result. All I did in this image was add a Curves adjustment in the Develop Persona and took a screen shot of the result. I know I could have improved the final result, but this illustrates the issue. In this Sony image, I actually found that the Serif RAW image was less magenta than the Apple image, probably in part because the Apple conversion has more contrast and saturation. (See screenshots). 

Then, I developed a Canon 5Dmk2 natural light image of my espresso machine, which has bright blue/cyan LEDs along each side. For these images, I did NOT use a Curves Adjustment in the Develop Persona, and left all the settings at their defaults. As with the Sony shots, I left the Tone Curve set to Take No Action, for a flatter result. On these two shots, the APPLE RAW engine resulted in truer, more accurate blues and cyans, opposite of what I saw with the Sony. Screenshots are attached. 

 I didn't make any edits in the Photo Persona, since the goal here was to see how the Develop Persona did with this super bright, saturated blues and cyans. I the past, I was able to use Selective Color, HSL, Highlights, etc, to get a truer result, but even with v2.4.0, I find the magenta cast still exists.. Again, my Canon images may not be the best test because I suspect there is some channel clipping in those blues. I've played with 32 bit too, but didn't see a lot of differences or improvements. I will attach my Canon RAW image (20231231-IMG_7008.DNG) also if anybody wants to take a look. 

 

20231231-IMG_7008.dng

[calebcudjoe]

@Ldina I would love to know how you are able to use different RAW engines as i've wanted to figure how to use sony's for a while now in AP, i only have seriff labs, im on a windows PC

[Ldina]

@calebcudjoe Caleb, I'm on a MacBook Pro, which allows me to choose between the Serif RAW or the Apple RAW engines. I don't believe the Apple (Core Image RAW) option is available for PC users. Those are the only two options available to me, so I can't use Sony, Canon or other RAW engines. See screenshot attached.

You could use the Sony software to develop your Sony images then open the converted image in Affinity Photo, but not through the Develop Persona. 

[calebcudjoe]

ah ok i thought you somehow were able to install the sony raw engine to App and use it. that'd be great

 

[Ldina]

2 minutes ago, calebcudjoe said:

ah ok i thought you somehow were able to install the sony raw engine to App and use it. that'd be great

Unfortunately, no. 

Overall, I'm generally okay using the Serif Labs raw engine. I don't ask the RAW processor to deliver finished or nearly finished images. I don't push my images very hard in the Develop Persona because I prefer to do non-destructive edits in the Photo Persona, so I'm just looking for a fairly conservative conversion that gets reasonably close and leaves plenty of headroom for later edits. Those shots of my espresso machine with the nuclear blue LEDs are few and far between, just stood out, and the conversions were unacceptable to me. For those images (at least with my camera), the Apple engine did a better job, but I can correct most of that magenta problem in the Photo Persona, whether I use the Serif or Apple RAW engine. I'd prefer if it were closer in the initial RAW conversion. 

[calebcudjoe]

7 minutes ago, Ldina said:

Unfortunately, no. 

Overall, I'm generally okay using the Serif Labs raw engine. I don't ask the RAW processor to deliver finished or nearly finished images. I don't push my images very hard in the Develop Persona because I prefer to do non-destructive edits in the Photo Persona, so I'm just looking for a fairly conservative conversion that gets reasonably close and leaves plenty of headroom for later edits. Those shots of my espresso machine with the nuclear blue LEDs are few and far between, just stood out, and the conversions were unacceptable to me. For those images (at least with my camera), the Apple engine did a better job, but I can correct most of that magenta problem in the Photo Persona, whether I use the Serif or Apple RAW engine. I'd prefer if it were closer in the initial RAW conversion. 

i too do the same for the most part. very interesting having the canon file. happy you have a way of dealing with it with your cam too!