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Exported JPG opens as a RAW file in Photoshop


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I recently sent a JPG file to a friend of mine and he opened the file in Photoshop. The JPG was exported from AP v2.0.4 (Mac Ventura). When he opened the file in Photoshop, it automatically opened the file in Adobe Camera RAW instead of opening it normally, as if the file I sent him was a RAW file instead of a JPG. I tried it myself on another computer I own that has Photoshop installed and got the same result. It launches Adobe Camera RAW, with a lot of crazy slider settings in the Basic Tab.

The original file was a RAW DNG file from my Canon DSLR. I processed the original RAW DNG file in AP v2.0.4 (Develop Persona) and I chose to import it into the Photo Persona with the RAW file (linked or embedded, I forget which). I wanted to retain the ability to go back and forth between AP and the Develop Persona so I could make adjustments in the Develop Persona. That all worked fine, as designed.

When I exported the file from AP to JPG, I suspect AP must have written something in the metadata so the JPG looks like a RAW file, which is what caused Photoshop to launch Camera Raw. To me, JPG is an industry standard file format and should not look or open as a RAW file in any program (even AP). The original AfPhoto file format is a different matter, since you want to retain that active link to the original raw file (if linked). 

Is this a bug? If intended, should it be changed? I suspect so. I don't want my JPG files sent to others opening as RAW files. 

I exported the file from AP to JPG twice, and will attach both files. One has sRGB embedded and the other is Adobe RGB. 

20221113-IMG_5765.jpg

20221113-IMG_5765-sRGB.jpg

2017 15" MacBook Pro, 16 MB RAM, Ventura v13.6.4, Affinity Photo/Designer/Publisher v2.4.0, Adobe CS6 Extended, LightRoom, Blender, 
Dell 30" Monitor, Canon PRO-100 Printer, i1 Spectrophotometer, i1Publish

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I have experienced this a few times, but could not find now a file that is causing this, and I think that when you post JPG files here on the forum they will be resaved at upload and the property that is causing the behavior is lost. Could you repost placing a JPG file showing this behavior in a zip file? It might also be related to specific Photoshop version so if possible, please specify!

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Thanks @lacerto. I think I figured out what is happening and I will attach a ZIP file for analysis by others. First, some background.

I've been using LightRoom v6 and Photoshop CS6 for many years on my old Mac Pro running OS X 10.8.5. More recently I am working on my MacBook Pro 2017 running Ventura v13.2.1. My laptop cannot load Photoshop, but LightRoom v6 still works on Ventura. I am using AP v2.0.4 on my laptop.

My normal routine was, and still is, to upload my RAW images (Canon 5DmkII) to LightRoom. I have LR set to Convert the CR2 file to DNG format, apply my custom DNG Canera Profile to the image, and to write copyright Metadata, name, address, etc into the DNG file. All "Auto" settings are set to OFF. In the past, I would make edits to the DNG file inside of LR. If I wanted to do more editing, I would open the file (from LR) into PSCS6, including all LR adjustments, edit, then resave as a PSD and/or JPG file. OK, that's the background. 

I ran some experiments this morning. First, I developed a RAW CR2 file (IMG-5931.CR2) using AP v2.0.4. I did NOT import this file into LR first, as I normally do. in the Develop Persona, I set the Develop Persona to export to AP with the RAW file "Linked". I edited the file, then Exported it to JPG from AP. I left Embed Metadata checked (as shown in the following screenshot).

871881267_Screenshot2023-03-15at8_43_23AM.thumb.png.cae06b75f9fc851b97aefbe6b28a0539.png

I then opened this JPG in PSCS6 on my old Mac Pro and it opened normally as a JPG (in other words, it did NOT force ACR to open it). This file never went to LightRoom and was not converted to DNG format. The original AfPhoto file, and exported JPG file are in the attached Zip file. 

Then I processed two additional RAW files using AP. Both of these files had been previously imported into LRv6 on my laptop. in one image, 5684.DNG) I "linked" the original DNG file in the Develop Persona before exporting to AP for further processing. I saved the file (which is included in the zip file) and exported it to JPG twice, once with Metadata embedded, and once without Metadata embedded. I opened both files in PSCS6 on my old Mac Pro. The file WITH METADATA opened in Adobe Camera RAW. The JPG file WITHOUT metadata opened normally in PS, without being forced to open in ACR.

I repeated this experiment with my original problem photo, 5765.DNG. This also had previously been imported into LR.. I opened it in AP Develop Personal, but this time I set the RAW file to be embedded when exporting to AP. As with the previous image, with a "link" to the DNG file, a JPG opened in ACR if the JPG was saved WITH Metadata, but opened normally if Metadata was NOT embedded.

My conclusion is that LightRoom is writing metadata to the file, which is retained even after edited in AP and the Develop Persona. When exporting to JPG, this LR Metadata is probably retained if "Embed Metadata" is Checked. If Metadata is UNchecked, that metadata which flags the file as a "RAW" file is stripped away, and the JPG opens normally in Photoshop. I have also notice then when a JPG Exported file is loaded back into LR, if the Metadata is left embedded, all the colors are whacked out in LR, since I assume LR is applying metadata to the finished JPG file. So, if using LR, and perhaps other similar software, it is best to save the JPG export from AP with "Embed Metadata" Unchecked. Unfortunately, this also strips metadata that we might want to retain in the file, such as copyright information, etc. 

All the AfPhoto and JPG files referred to are included in the attached Zip file. 

 

 

ACR and LR Issue.zip

2017 15" MacBook Pro, 16 MB RAM, Ventura v13.6.4, Affinity Photo/Designer/Publisher v2.4.0, Adobe CS6 Extended, LightRoom, Blender, 
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Thanks, @lacerto. That seems to be the issue. 

1 minute ago, lacerto said:

Yes, it seems that Raw data cannot be stripped (or marked as having been processed), while some other data selectively can.

What data can "selectively" be stripped, or altered, and how? I figured the "Embed Metadata" checkbox was an all-or-nothing thing. I'd love to be able to strip JUST the metadata that tags the JPG file as RAW and forces other Apps to see it as such.

2017 15" MacBook Pro, 16 MB RAM, Ventura v13.6.4, Affinity Photo/Designer/Publisher v2.4.0, Adobe CS6 Extended, LightRoom, Blender, 
Dell 30" Monitor, Canon PRO-100 Printer, i1 Spectrophotometer, i1Publish

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These tags might be responsible
Raw File Name                   : 20221113-IMG_5765.DNG

Format                          : image/dng

History Action                  : converted, saved, saved, produced
History Parameters              : from image/x-canon-cr2 to image/dng
History Changed                 : /metadata, /metadata
History Instance ID             : xmp.iid:b4ddddc5-7331-4578-a04a-7f2ecbcf0528, xmp.iid:f699b44b-334b-4f2c-94dd-ddd0c4337ec7
History Software Agent          : Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 6.14 (Macintosh), Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 6.14 (Macintosh), Affinity Photo 2 2.0.4
History When                    : 2022:11:13 14:44:36-06:00, 2022:11:14 07:45:06-06:00, 2023:03:09 11:20:57-06:00

so I removed them with
exiftool -RawFileName= -Format= -history*= IMG_5765-sRGB.jpg

The new file is in the zip, I'll be interested if it's worked

IMG_5765-sRGB.zip

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1 minute ago, David in Яuislip said:

These tags might be responsible

Thanks, David. I suspect so.

I noticed another thing. I just imported a bunch of JPGs into LightRoom, which I previously exported from AP.

The RAW digital camera originals files were previously imported into LR, converted to DNG, added my personal metadata, applied a custom camera profile, etc. I then opened and edited these RAW files in AP and exported them to JPG. When importing the exported JPG files back into LR, other metadata in the files caused them to be reinterpreted by LR, so the colors, crops, densities, etc, looked terrible. Obviously, some of the original LR metadata was left intact inside the exported JPG files. 

In my opinion, any metadata that causes other Apps to see the JPG file as RAW, or forces the Apps to "reinterpret" the JPG file and change the way it is displayed, should be removed or zeroed out. A JPG file is an industry standard, standalone, final bitmap format. The same should probably apply to TIFF and other "bitmap" formats. RAW files, AfPhoto files, etc, are special cases are need to be interpreted by programs like AP, Photoshop, Adobe Camera Raw, etc. I consider this export behavior to be a bug or oversight. Exports to these standardized, "final" formats should always have such information removed.

Other metadata, such as name, address, phone, copyright, etc, should be left intact. In my opinion, the "Embed Metadata" Export Option should remove that "extra" metadata on export, if the user so chooses. But exporting to JPG, TIFF, PNG and other "final" formats should ALWAYS removed metadata that will affect how the image will open or display. Perhaps others may chime in and point out something I have missed. 

 

2017 15" MacBook Pro, 16 MB RAM, Ventura v13.6.4, Affinity Photo/Designer/Publisher v2.4.0, Adobe CS6 Extended, LightRoom, Blender, 
Dell 30" Monitor, Canon PRO-100 Printer, i1 Spectrophotometer, i1Publish

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12 minutes ago, Ldina said:

Thanks, David. I suspect so.

So is my file ok then?

If you're opening the file with a double click then it is the OS deciding to open in Photoshop and I'm amazed that it's looking at metadata rather than respecting the system file associations. I don't blame Affinity for this, it's just passing on metadata that it received in the input

Here's the complete exiftool dump, there is a lot of junk in there

IMG_5765-sRGB.jpg.txt

Microsoft Windows 11 Home, Intel i7-1360P 2.20 GHz, 32 GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Intel Iris Xe
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9 minutes ago, David in Яuislip said:

So is my file ok then?

No, the JPG file you attached opened in Adobe Camera Raw.

I didn't double-click on the file to open it. I opened Photoshop CS6 first, then used the File > Open command from PS to open your file, which automatically launched Adobe Camera RAW. The same thing happened with my original JPG Export from AP that had the "Embed Metadata" box checked. That should NEVER happen with a JPG, TIFF, PNG, etc, in my opinion. These are standalone, industry standard file formats. It has never happened to me with JPG files I Exported or Saved from Photoshop.

2017 15" MacBook Pro, 16 MB RAM, Ventura v13.6.4, Affinity Photo/Designer/Publisher v2.4.0, Adobe CS6 Extended, LightRoom, Blender, 
Dell 30" Monitor, Canon PRO-100 Printer, i1 Spectrophotometer, i1Publish

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Purely a guess, but this seems like a reasonable candidate:

image.png.2a001ab9de0d2e736cbe4765108488b4.png

Exiftool reports it as:

---- XMP-crs ----
Already Applied                 : False

---- XMP-crs ----
Already Applied                 : False

I'm not skilled enough with Exiftool to try deleting it.

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2 hours ago, Ldina said:

What data can "selectively" be stripped, or altered, and how? I figured the "Embed Metadata" checkbox was an all-or-nothing thing. I'd love to be able to strip JUST the metadata that tags the JPG file as RAW and forces other Apps to see it as such.

In the Metadata panel of Affinity Photo, there is a context menu where you can choose to strip EXIF and GPS Location meta data. You can also import and export meta data, and select and copy RAW meta data, but you cannot strip it.

jpgraw.jpg.a78caf973ef7b669eca67efac775e55f.jpg

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Actually, stripping the EXIF meta data causes the RAW EXIF tag for RAW procedure having been non-applied or applied to be stripped, which also means that Photoshop will no longer open that file in RAW view! RAW data still exists there. But useful EXIF meta data will nevertheless be lost.

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38 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Purely a guess, but this seems like a reasonable candidate:

Ha ha, I missed that, good spot. This

exiftool -xmp:AlreadyApplied=True IMG_5765-sRGB.jpg

will set the flag to be true

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I'm curious if those who responded to this thread think it's a bug or oversight? Once a file is exported from AP to JPG, TIFF, PNG and other standardized formats, shouldn't the file's metadata be updated by default? I think so, and it shouldn't require a user to discard other relevant metadata that doesn't affect the way a file opens or displays.

It's very possible I'm missing something. 

55 minutes ago, lacerto said:

In the Metadata panel of Affinity Photo, there is a context menu where you can choose to strip EXIF and GPS Location meta data. You can also import and export meta data, and select and copy RAW meta data, but you cannot strip it.

Thanks @lacerto. I haven't looked at this closely yet, but I will. 

2017 15" MacBook Pro, 16 MB RAM, Ventura v13.6.4, Affinity Photo/Designer/Publisher v2.4.0, Adobe CS6 Extended, LightRoom, Blender, 
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Hi @Ldina,

Photoshop opens processed files in Camera RAW by default if an XMP sidecar file is present.

So one thing to check is that you don't have a sidecar in the same directory, left over from your work with the DNG in your Adobe software.

If that doesn't solve it, it is possible that Photoshop is picking up on some Camera RAW develop metadata in the JPEG; if so, it may be appropriate for us to start automatically stripping that out on export, but it's something we'll need to investigate further.

You can also change your Camera RAW settings to "Disable JPEG Support" entirely.

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20 minutes ago, Tom Lachecki said:

Photoshop opens processed files in Camera RAW by default if an XMP sidecar file is present.

Thanks for the reply Tom. I'm not sure what you mean by "processed files". Are you referring to RAW files, JPG files, or all files? 

I copied a JPG, CR2 RAW file, and an XMP to my desktop Mac Pro computer (OSX 10.8.5) where I have Photoshop CS6 installed. Even with the XMP file in the same folder, my JPG file opens normally in Photoshop IF the metadata is stripped from the file when exporting from AP v2.0.4. And, of course, the CR2 file, being a RAW file, opens in Adobe Camera RAW. So it doesn't appear the presence of the XMP file is the issue causing the JPG to open in ACR on my system.

Also, I emailed a JPG to a friend without any XMP file, and it opened up in Camera RAW on his Windows computer (metadata had NOT be stripped from this JPG when it was exported from AP). I resent the same image to him after stripping the metadata on export from AP, and that file opened normally on his Windows machine, in Photoshop, not Camera RAW. 

So, everything I have tried points to the fact that AP is leaving the file tagged as a RAW file when exporting to JPG unless you uncheck "embed metadata" before exporting. I've also noticed that if I import an AP exported JPG file into LightRoom without stripping metadata on export, it whacks out the colors. So, AP is also leaving all the metadata in the exported JPGs relating to Slider Adjustments previously made on a RAW file in ACR or LightRoom. As a result, when the JPG is imported into the LR database, LR sees those metadata tags in the DNG or EXMP file, and applies those slider positions and adjusts color, brightness, etc. Not good. JPGs, TIFFs, PNGs and other industry standard file formats should behave the same on all software. That's not happening here because those necessary metadata tags are not being updated on Export from AP.

BTW, I always convert my RAW files to DNG when I import into LightRoom on my computer, so I never have XMP sidecar files on my system. I only tried a few Canon CR2 RAW examples (not converting to DNG or importing into LightRoom) so I could see if it happened to files that were not previously imported into LR. 

I consider this export behavior from AP a BUG, or at least an OVERSIGHT. Yes, I can choose to not embed metadata on export from AP, but that removes a lot of metadata that I want to retain. Also, the default export to JPG has "embed metadata" checked. I think this needs to be fixed.

2017 15" MacBook Pro, 16 MB RAM, Ventura v13.6.4, Affinity Photo/Designer/Publisher v2.4.0, Adobe CS6 Extended, LightRoom, Blender, 
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As I say, this is really more of a Photoshop & Camera RAW setting (and you can turn it off in Camera RAW) for any file that has, at some stage in its past, already been touched by such software.

But we'll consider an addition to our "Embed Metadata" checkbox to allow you to strip out only the Camera RAW metadata from exported JPEGs, so that you can stop this Adobe feature from being triggered.

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Thanks, Tom. I'd appreciate Affinity considering this change to export behavior regarding metadata. I'll explain why.

I think most users see JPG, TIFF, and other industry standard file formats as universal, a final, standardized, "fully baked" image format. If I am collaborating with someone who uses Photoshop or other photo editing software, and send them a JPG image using your default Export settings, when they open the image, it will trigger the file to open in a RAW processor, and what's more, it will instruct that RAW software to apply color adjustments based on the metadata residing in the file.

How are they to know what to do? They don't use Affinity Photo or have any idea what's going on. They expect a final JPG image with an embedded profile, nothing more. I didn't realize this was an issue until I stumbled on this problem accidentally when a friend was confused by the JPG opening in ACR. 

So, I respectfully disagree. I don't see this as an Adobe problem. I believe the problem resides in the metadata inside the JPG that is exported from AP. What AP is exporting with the default settings is no longer and "industry standard" JPG file, but a "JPG-plus" file. 

There may be other good reasons why Affinity needs that metadata to remain "as is' inside the JPG...I wouldn't know that. But, default export behavior from AP should always generate an industry standard JPG file that opens and displays the same on all platforms and in all software. I hope Affinity will consider this change in Export behavior for all industry standard file formats. 

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@Tom Lachecki

I'm not a metadata expert or a coder, but I wanted to add a little extra information that might be helpful.

Attached is a JPG image that was exported from a RAW image in LightRoom after making some adjustments to sliders and settings inside of LR's Develop Module. The JPG file contains all the metadata that that was written to the file by LR. When the LR exported JPG displays in LR, it displays correctly, and when the file is subsequently opened in AP or Photoshop, it opens normally and displays accurately. 

I opened this JPG file in AP v2.0.4, (it opened fine), then used the AP Metadata Panel to display some of the metadata that LR wrote when saving the JPG. Under the Metadata "Detail" section, you can see an entry that says, "XMP (Camera Raw) Already Applied: YES". I am assuming this flag keeps the file from being seen as a RAW file and triggering ACR to open when the file is opened in Photoshop. There may be other metadata that also triggers this behavior...your coders would know, but I don't. JPG Exports from AP don't write this into the JPG's Metadata, at least not in this form. 

I also highlighted some metadata in Green in the screenshot. This shows various adjustments made to the RAW file in LR prior to the LR Export to JPG. Perhaps the "XMP (Camera Raw) Already Applied: YES" tag is enough to tell ACR and LR to ignore all these sliders and settings. Or maybe it's another metadata entry. 

I'm guessing some simple coding will probably prevent AP JPG Exports from ever opening in a RAW processor or applying image corrections made during initial RAW development. Since Photoshop is so widely used, I thought it would be best to make sure that exports from AP work properly, by default, when opened on Adobe software. 

Thanks for listening and responding to this thread. I appreciate it.

Detail MetaData from LR Export.jpg

IMG_5931-LR Export.jpg

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10 hours ago, Ldina said:

Since Photoshop is so widely used, I thought it would be best to make sure that exports from AP work properly, by default, when opened on Adobe software.

It could perhaps be an optional feature (or perhaps rather stripping only just RAW data itself could be, instead, in context of JPG export).

I am not sure, however, if "AlreadyApplied" XMP tag is specific to Adobe Camera RAW, and accordingly should not at least automatically be touched by other RAW processors. E.g., when DxO PhotoLab processes images (though not just specifically RAW images), it creates a sidecar indicating if an image has been processed by PhotoLab, and then shows the following information in the UI (green corner added in the DxO created thumbnail image based on existence of sidecar file, but nothing written in the processed image file itself, whether e.g. .CR2 or even any regular file, with or without RAW content):

dxo_processed.jpg.760a6fa1b59c827d13f37fb45f8ff0c5.jpg

An alternative could then be, as shown by @David in Яuislip above, using e.g. ExifTool command line utility (Perl script available also as command line apps for both Windows and macOS), to manually mark an image as "AlreadyApplied", whenever wanting to make sure that the file opens in Photoshop (or Lightroom) without showing the Camera Raw interface. 

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So it's Photoshop deciding to open a jpeg in camera raw based on something in the metadata, seems like an Adobe issue to me, if I were Serif I wouldn't mess about with metadata added by other software. 

"XMP crs Tags
Photoshop Camera Raw namespace tags. It is a shame that Adobe pollutes the metadata space with these incredibly bulky image editing parameters"
Quoted from here
https://exiftool.org/TagNames/XMP.html#crs

There is a lot of junk as crs tags, these can be removed with
exiftool -XMP-crs:all= IMG_5765-sRGB.jpg
which also deletes the dreaded AlreadyApplied so that may work

This article
https://fstoppers.com/education/are-all-your-lightroom-development-settings-being-saved-your-exported-photos-460368
may be useful, it suggests that there is a Lightroom export option for metadata which may avoid this problem

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@lacerto Thanks. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know exactly what changes would need to be made in the metadata. I just feel it should be done, so exports from AP worked as expected in other software, and especially Photoshop and Lightroom, since they are so widely used.

44 minutes ago, David in Яuislip said:

So it's Photoshop deciding to open a jpeg in camera raw based on something in the metadata, seems like an Adobe issue to me, if I were Serif I wouldn't mess about with metadata added by other software. 

I see your point, but still think it is in Affinity's best interest to make sure their JPG, TIFF, PNG and other standardized bitmap file formats export from AP open and display properly in Photoshop and LightRoom, without triggering RAW development or color shifts. Even if the metadata was originally written by LR, ACR or PS, it should be fast and easy to fix when exporting from AP. Serif will know the correct metadata tags to change or eliminate. Adobe is still the big kid on the block and a LOT of users initially process files using PS, LR or ACR. I still use LR as my main image database and import all my RAW images using it, convert to DNG, etc. While I now know how to prevent this behavior, by stripping metadata, others won't. If JPG or TIFF exports from AP routinely cause this behavior, it will be problematic. Most people will probably blame AP. Why not fix it so it doesn't happen, especially if it is easy to fix (which it probably is)? 

I happen to really like the Affinity Suite and want to see them thrive and grow. This is one, small easy fix, and every little bit helps. 

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36 minutes ago, Ldina said:

I see your point, but still think it is in Affinity's best interest

Apparently you don't. He stated that it wouldn't be in Serif's best interest to mess with metadata added by other software. This is totally different than altering metadata added by their own software. What would your stance be if Serif did alter the metadata put their by Adobe and it causes you problems in Camera Raw or LR? I'd be just a little miffed. I agree withe David, Serif should leave it alone.

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Fair enough. I've raised the issue and had my say. I think it's an issue that needs addressing. Hopefully, Serif can find a way to accomplish the end goal without causing problems for other software vendors. How (and if) they do this is up to them. 

2017 15" MacBook Pro, 16 MB RAM, Ventura v13.6.4, Affinity Photo/Designer/Publisher v2.4.0, Adobe CS6 Extended, LightRoom, Blender, 
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