Developing RAW photos changes colors significantly

[jbjohnson]

I have been using Affinity photo to develop raw photos taken with Nikon z6 for some time now, but I'm having trouble with a single photo right now. 
I am adjusting the exposure, and temperature before developing, and the preview before developing looks great, but after I click develop, the colors are drastically different. What am I doing wrong? Is this happening to all my photos, and I am only just now noticing on this (very vibrant) photo?

I've uploaded a screenshot of the affinity view pre-developing and post developing... as you can see (hopefully), the beautiful yellow green loses some saturation/vibrancy.

 I hope the difference is as apparent on my screen as these screenshots will show.

[RichardMH]

Mac or windows?

[jbjohnson]

12 hours ago, RichardMH said:

Mac or windows?

Mac OS Big Sur 11.6

[Dan C]

Hi @jbjohnson,

Sorry to hear you're having trouble! Unfortunately I can't personally see much of a difference in this file, so it may be local to your mac colour profile settings.

Firstly, you need to be viewing the RAW file in the develop persona at 100% for a fully accurate preview of the image, as at zoom levels lower than this Affinity uses Mipmaps which may cause the image to appear slightly differently than when viewed at 100%.

Secondly, this may be due to colour profiles, either set within Affinity or through macOS itself.

Within the developed file in Affinity, can you please navigate to Document > Convert Format / ICC Profile and provide a screenshot of this dialog for me?

Then, open Apple > System Preferences > Displays > Colour and provide a screenshot of your settings here also?

Many thanks in advance

[jbjohnson]

10 hours ago, Dan C said:

Hi @jbjohnson,

Sorry to hear you're having trouble! Unfortunately I can't personally see much of a difference in this file, so it may be local to your mac colour profile settings.

Firstly, you need to be viewing the RAW file in the develop persona at 100% for a fully accurate preview of the image, as at zoom levels lower than this Affinity uses Mipmaps which may cause the image to appear slightly differently than when viewed at 100%.

Secondly, this may be due to colour profiles, either set within Affinity or through macOS itself.

Within the developed file in Affinity, can you please navigate to Document > Convert Format / ICC Profile and provide a screenshot of this dialog for me?

Then, open Apple > System Preferences > Displays > Colour and provide a screenshot of your settings here also?

Many thanks in advance

attached 

[NotMyFault]

11 hours ago, Dan C said:

Unfortunately I can't personally see much of a difference in this file, so it may be local to your mac colour profile settings.

 

If you stack the images, and set blend mode to difference, you will see a very strong difference but only on blue channel. Red and green seem identical.

Interestingly, this difference is not directly visible when comparing without help of blend mode on iPad. Maybe a kind of night mode which reduces blue channel?

[R C-R]

28 minutes ago, NotMyFault said:

Maybe a kind of night mode which reduces blue channel?

Night Shift is one of the first things I made sure was not enabled on my iMac, not just because it can change colors but also because there is no scientific evidence that the blues produced by computer displays include the wavelengths at bright enough levels to have any affect on circadian rhythms or sleep patterns.

[RichardMH]

I did notice you are using sRGB colour space. As far as I can ascertain, Develop Persona is ROMM RGB. Maybe change to RGB/16 ROMM RGB and see what happens.

(Can set RGB profile to ROMM RGB in Preferences then select it in the Document menu)

[jbjohnson]

42 minutes ago, NotMyFault said:

If you stack the images, and set blend mode to difference, you will see a very strong difference but only on blue channel. Red and green seem identical.

Interestingly, this difference is not directly visible when comparing without help of blend mode on iPad. Maybe a kind of night mode which reduces blue channel?

Interesting find. Thank you for that. 

I do not have any night mode enabled, and I can SEE the change happen as soon as I click 'develop'. In develop persona, the image looks as I want it, so I develop the photo and it changes before my eyes to the apparently less-blue version.

[RichardMH]

Another test using your screen shots. Crop down to just the images and duplicate each. In Filters apply average blur to each duplicate. Use the info panel to compare RGB values.

[NotMyFault]

A theory: 

your image has really strong colors, pushed to the max by the chosen adjustments. The resulting colors are partially outside the gamut covered by sRGB. When you develop to sRGB, it effectively cuts off those wide gamut colors.

As Develop Persona and your Display probably can Display a wider gamut, you are able to see the difference.

Try to select a wide gamut color profile as target from Develop Persona, and check if the issue is reduced.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65156844
 

 

[Dan C]

Apologies for the delayed response here!

There's 2 possibilities here from my understanding;

1. Affinity may be struggling to correctly apply your monitor profile between the two personas, causing the slight colour variation
2. As mentioned above, you may be displaying colours outside of the sRGB / 16bit gamut, applied when developing the image

To test the first, please re-navigate to the System Preferences > Display > Colour dialog, then untick Show profiles for this display only and you should find that other profiles now appear in this list.

Select the 'sRGB IEC 61966-2.1' profile, and restart the Affinity apps.

Are you still seeing the same colour difference? If so, please try the steps suggested above from NotMyFault and let us know how you get on here

[jbjohnson]

4 hours ago, Dan C said:

To test the first, please re-navigate to the System Preferences > Display > Colour dialog, then untick Show profiles for this display only and you should find that other profiles now appear in this list.

Select the 'sRGB IEC 61966-2.1' profile, and restart the Affinity apps.

Are you still seeing the same colour difference? If so, please try the steps suggested above from NotMyFault and let us know how you get on here

After changing my displays color profile to sRGB IEC 61966-2.1, the image looks the same in both screenshots and the edits made in develop persona are not "lost" once developed. In using this other color profile, am I then changing what the image ACTUALLY looks like, or am I just limiting my screens ability to show the image correctly?

 

On 11/17/2021 at 12:55 AM, NotMyFault said:

As Develop Persona and your Display probably can Display a wider gamut, you are able to see the difference.

Try to select a wide gamut color profile as target from Develop Persona, and check if the issue is reduced.

In an attempt to explore idea #2 mentioned by NotMyFault, I have found color settings in AP preferences. In changing the color profile here, what exactly am I changing? Is it the overall color profile AP uses through all personas? or is it the Target for develop persona like you mention? Sorry, this is getting a little over my head. 

Another question, Since my display natively uses Apple RGB color profile, wouldn't having the same setting in AP be ideal?

[jbjohnson]

I'm reading about the differences between color spaces, color profiles, sRGB, Adobe RGB, and am now questioning my entire workflow for shooting, developing, and exporting/sharing photos. 

I shoot RAW photos using a Nikon Z6, (which I have only just discovered, is capturing photos using the sRGB color space instead of Adobe RGB... a default that I haven't changed)

I then move the photos onto Affinity photo (which has been on the sRGB IEC 61966-2.1 color profile setting)

adjust, develop, export to JPEG (highest quality) 

and share to my friends, family, and social media. 

My questions are these

1. Should I be using Adobe RGB color space for capturing photos on my Nikon Z6, or is this superfluous since I never send my photos to print? 

2. what color profile should AP be set to if I capture photos in sRGB, same question if I choose to capture in Adobe RGB?

3. What color profile should I set my computer's display to get the most accurate viewing during development and sharing of my photos?

I would love a link to an article or course that would go over all of this. I have found so far that photographers do not completely agree on the answers to some of these questions...

[NotMyFault]

So many questions.

 

13 minutes ago, jbjohnson said:

1. Should I be using Adobe RGB color space for capturing photos on my Nikon Z6, or is this superfluous since I never send my photos to print? 

It doesn't matter at all. The color space you set in camera only affects out-of-camera jpeg (or heif) images, but not RAW images. RAW images can be converted into any of the available color formats and profiles. This is one essential part of RAW development.

[RichardMH]

1. Camera colour space doesn't affect RAW files. It only affects the jpegs.

2. I set AP to ROMM RGB. Its the biggest colour space. I export as sRGB for the web. Can use softproofing to see what it looks like.

3. Strongly suggest calibrating your monitor. I use Spyder X Pro. X-rite colormunki is another good one. Then you get reproducible colour.

[NotMyFault]

16 minutes ago, jbjohnson said:

. what color profile should AP be set to if I capture photos in sRGB, same question if I choose to capture in Adobe RGB?

RAW photos don't have a color format assigned. It does not matter.

[NotMyFault]

18 minutes ago, jbjohnson said:

3. What color profile should I set my computer's display to get the most accurate viewing during development and sharing of my photos?

Use the "widest" gamut profile which is supported by your monitor.

 

For a complete list see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProPhoto_RGB_color_space

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/CIE1931xy_gamut_comparison.svg

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by NotMyFault

[jbjohnson]

Thank you both for the very helpful information. 
 

Only one last thing

 

On 11/17/2021 at 12:55 AM, NotMyFault said:

Try to select a wide gamut color profile as target from Develop Persona, and check if the issue is reduced.

how do I do this

[NotMyFault]

31 minutes ago, jbjohnson said:

and share to my friends, family, and social media. 

This is a tricky one.

 

sRGB: least common denominator. The old web since 1980s to about 2010 was dominated by sRGB. a small gamut, but most device can handle this profile correctly.

DCP-P3: The new standard supported by almost all modern devices (Windows, Mac, iOS, Android, HD/UHD TVs), coming from HD Televisions. Wider gamut, good support by all current browsers and devices. Infamous exception: Windows Photo viewer, legacy Internet Explorer.

AdobeRGB: wider gamut than sRGB, but mostly useful for documents intended for print.

ROMM RGB / ProPhoto: super wide gamut, good for "intermediate" documents which will be converted for multiple channels.

If your images get mostly viewed on smartphones and tablets, DCI-P3 is the choice for best quality.

To be on the safe side, use sRGB but live with loss of gamut. But keep your "master" files in formats with wider gamut for future re-use.

Edited November 18, 2021 by NotMyFault

[RichardMH]

I think its a change in preferences (I have a PC not a mac). Edit->Preferences->Colour and where it says RGB colour profile put ROMM RGB.

And in Document-> Convert Format/ICC Profile check that its Format RGB/16 and Profile ROMM RGB. If you have the context toolbar visible (check it in View if its not there) you can see  the documents colour format.

Softproof is in Adjustments.

I have a sRGB preset in the jpeg export settings.

That should cover everything.

 

[NotMyFault]

Besides color profile and their gamut, in my perspective the 8bit per color channel of jpeg images is the more severe limitation.

If you have images with fine color gradients of mostly a singe primary color, e.g. blue sky slightly changing its lightness, jpeg often start to show banding (harsh edges within this soft gradients). This is where HEIF is a relief, as it supports more than 8bit per color channel and good compression. HEIF is still in its infant state, with lots of compatibility issues (Apple vs. Canon vs. Sony use different / incompatible versions), and especially breaking Windows Explorer all the time (and sometime Affinity Photo).

[NotMyFault]

14 minutes ago, jbjohnson said:

Thank you both for the very helpful information. 
 

Only one last thing

 

how do I do this

 

It would be easier if you can say what color profiles your display is supporting.

E.g. my LG monitor supports sRGB, AdobeRGB, DCI-P3, and the last has the widest gamut. If i would edit a document with ROMM RGB, some colors cannot be displayed correctly and would be clipped / transformed to similar colors within the visible range of DCI-P3.

I would not be able to see the actual colors, unless i switch to a ROMM RGB capable display.

The other way, editing sRGB is no problem, as DCI-P3 can render all possible sRGB colors (without clipping).

 

[jbjohnson]

5 minutes ago, NotMyFault said:

It would be easier if you can say what color profiles your display is supporting.

E.g. my LG monitor supports sRGB, AdobeRGB, DCI-P3, and the last has the widest gamut. If i would edit a document with ROMM RGB, some colors cannot be displayed correctly and would be clipped / transformed to similar colors within the visible range of DCI-P3.

OK. I am working on a 2019 MacBook Pro 16 Inch. I am using the Built in LCD display. Not sure how to find out what color profiles are supported. 

[v_kyr]

6 minutes ago, jbjohnson said:

1. Should I be using Adobe RGB color space for capturing photos on my Nikon Z6, or is this superfluous since I never send my photos to print? 

You can setup and use it as an default on your Nikon Z6 for JPGs. Since the Adobe RGB color space has a wider gammut (color space) than sRGB ...

... it can showup more colors for JPGs here, as far as it has been generated/developed in cam in the Adobe RGB developed color space and it's icc profile is embedded in those final out of cam JPGs.

Note however, that RAW images don't contain any color space at all. RAW files offer, so to say, initially just a mathematically color free space, or with other easier words said, the full spectrum of possible colors the hardware (the cam) can physically offer. - A color space in any RAW converter (Affinity here too) is usually assigned after the RAW develop process, meaning the developed RAW file are mapped afterwards color wise to a color space. The huger the color space (gammut) the more possible colors can it transport and show (...as far as the display output devices, like LCD monitors, tablets, iPhones etc. do supports to show up that much colors at all).

29 minutes ago, jbjohnson said:

2. what color profile should AP be set to if I capture photos in sRGB, same question if I choose to capture in Adobe RGB?

Well sRGB is the lowest common denominator here, since pretty much all displays can at least show it up in terms of colors. So if you capture JPGs with/in an assigned sRGB color space, you obviously use sRGB in AP too! - Using Adobe RGB instead makes sense for working image manipulation wise in that color space, since it offers more color possibilities. Though in the end you will mostly let the result be mapped to sRGB again, since that is the common display standard in term of colors all devices can show up. - If you have some better pro display monitor, which can showup nearly the whole AdobeRGB color space, then using the Adobe RGB color space and icc profiles is of an advantage during image workings. - However note again, that only better screen devices can make use of the more/extra colors here, if you assign the Adobe RGB icc profile to your JPG images!

39 minutes ago, jbjohnson said:

3. What color profile should I set my computer's display to get the most accurate viewing during development and sharing of my photos?

The AP RAW develop persona shows you your to be developed images in a very wide gammut (one of the widest available color spaces), usually something like ProPhoto/ROMM RGB here. Since you are there in a RAW development state then and there all possible colors must be presented (even your display monitor wouldn't technical be able to show up all of those colors at all).

Now after you developed the image and take it over from the Develop Persona into the Photo Persona for further image manipulations, comes the interesting part of what color space to use an image here then. Here again, the higher/wider the color space the more you can tweak and work with colors overall here, as far as you have a good pro calibrated monitor/display. So you can continue your working here in a higer color space than sRGB, let's say ProPhoto or Adobe RGB etc. But when you finally save/export your image as an JPG/PNG etc. you would then let it be generated and color mapped for sRGB, since as I said before, this is the lowest common denominator here, which all display devices can show up nearly equally.

So if you give away or share your final developed and worked out images, you should store then for the sRGB color space with an embedded sRGB color profile!

Quote

I would love a link to an article or course that would go over all of this.

Well there are many (too many) photo sides which deal with all this materia, thus I will name only one common quite good one here:

• https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/