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Brushes not working correctly with Fill Layers?


Meorge
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For coloring my artwork, I like to create a fill layer for each color, set the entire layer's mask to black, then paint in the areas where I want the color to show through. Today while following this procedure, I realized that the colors were inconsistent. Despite (at least as far as I can tell) using a brush that should output with 100% opacity and pure white, overlaying strokes results in very slightly different colors. 

In the video I attached, I confirm that the brush is currently set to 100% white, and display its properties (100% hardness, flow, opacity, etc). I then paint on the canvas, and as you can see it is a solid color. However, when I paint on the canvas again, the color is a tiny bit lighter. Since I'm painting with the same 100% white brush both times, there should be no variation in color.

While I didn't record a video of it, I just tried replicating the behavior with the same brush and same color as the fill layer, but in a normal pixel layer, and there the color seemed to be fine.

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I’m not seeing a difference. Set two fill layers and set same colour in each. Added empty mask (black). One fill layer disappears. Set brush to white and paint on mask to reveal colour. Compared colours, looks same shade. Colour sliders say colour same.

IPad Pro 10.5/512GB   lpadOS 15.3 Apple Pencil (1st gen), Affinity Photo 1.10.5 Affinity Design 1.10.5

Official Online iPad Help documents (multi-lingual) here: https://affinity.help/

PDF Help files available here:

Affinity Photo 1.9.2-help.pdf 

Affinity Designer Help File 1.9.7.pdf

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1 hour ago, Meorge said:

In the video I attached, I confirm that the brush is currently set to 100% white, and display its properties (100% hardness, flow, opacity, etc).

For some reason the opacity setting is not visible in the brushes context menu. The opacity setting in the colour studio will still effect the context menu setting so, maybe your opacity in the Colour studio Grey Slider was not at 100%? Eg I set opacity to 93% in colour studio but this is not apparent in context menu.

A5DB8CC9-6D62-4031-86E1-76309C73BCC8.jpeg

9B84DFCB-F651-4D21-9591-25655E512DA1.jpeg

IPad Pro 10.5/512GB   lpadOS 15.3 Apple Pencil (1st gen), Affinity Photo 1.10.5 Affinity Design 1.10.5

Official Online iPad Help documents (multi-lingual) here: https://affinity.help/

PDF Help files available here:

Affinity Photo 1.9.2-help.pdf 

Affinity Designer Help File 1.9.7.pdf

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4 minutes ago, DM1 said:

I’m not seeing a difference. Set two fill layers and set same colour in each. Added empty mask (black). One fill layer disappears. Set brush to white and paint on mask to reveal colour. Compared colours, looks same shade. Colour sliders say colour same.The 

I think my phrasing may have confused things. To get the behavior I experienced, I didn't add a mask layer to a fill layer; instead, I cleared the fill layer itself and painted with the white brush on the fill layer. I recorded another video to demonstrate with the following steps:

  1. Create a new Fill Layer.
  2. Using the Flood Fill Tool, erase all content on the Fill Layer, so that none of its color shows.
  3. Use the Paint Brush Tool with the same brush and 100% white, 100% opacity, 0% noise to paint on the Fill Layer.
  4. Use the Paint Brush Tool again on top of the previous color. There is a difference in color painting on this step versus step 3.
  5. Create a new Pixel Layer.
  6. Use the Paint Brush Tool with the same brush and 100% opacity, 0% noise with a dark color (or at least the same one as the Fill Layer) to paint on the Pixel Layer.
  7. Use the Paint Brush Tool again on top of the previous color on the Pixel Layer. There is no difference in color that I can see.
  8. Return to the Fill Layer, set the Paint Brush Tool's color to 100% white, and paint over the previously painted Fill Layer. Again, there is a visible difference in color.
Quote

For some reason the opacity setting is not visible in the brushes context menu. The opacity setting in the colour studio will still effect the context menu setting so, maybe your opacity in the Colour studio Grey Slider was not at 100%? Eg I set opacity to 93% in colour studio but this is not apparent in context menu.

Thanks for suggesting this, it did seem like a potential culprit. I checked, though, and the opacity and noise were at 100% and 0% respectively (as can be seen in the video attached to this post).

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1 hour ago, Meorge said:
  • Create a new Fill Layer. done
  • Using the Flood Fill Tool, erase all content on the Fill Layer, so that none of its color shows. Done - empty layer reveals red painted on pixel layer underneath.
  • Use the Paint Brush Tool with the same brush and 100% white, 100% opacity, 0% noise to paint on the Fill Layer. Done - results in black on fill layer covering underlying pixel layer.
  • Use the Paint Brush Tool again on top of the previous color. There is a difference in color painting on this step versus step 3. Done - no difference noted. Black shade appears unchanged, just bigger.
  • Create a new Pixel Layer. Done
  • Use the Paint Brush Tool with the same brush and 100% opacity, 0% noise with a dark color (or at least the same one as the Fill Layer) to paint on the Pixel Layer. Same colour as fill layer is White?? Not dark. Appears white on pixel layer/black on fill layer
  • Use the Paint Brush Tool again on top of the previous color on the Pixel Layer. There is no difference in color that I can see. Done - no difference, white over white is still white
  • Return to the Fill Layer, set the Paint Brush Tool's color to 100% white, and paint over the previously painted Fill Layer. Again, there is a visible difference in color. Done - still black

I’m not familiar with your painting process but following points 1-8 I find that the white brush paints as black on the empty fill layer and as white on the pixel layer. I put some red on pixel layer just to identify it and set canvas to transparent. I’m clearly not following, sorry. 

BA8055FF-605F-4FAE-A54C-FBCA2CF02966.jpeg

IPad Pro 10.5/512GB   lpadOS 15.3 Apple Pencil (1st gen), Affinity Photo 1.10.5 Affinity Design 1.10.5

Official Online iPad Help documents (multi-lingual) here: https://affinity.help/

PDF Help files available here:

Affinity Photo 1.9.2-help.pdf 

Affinity Designer Help File 1.9.7.pdf

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Another interesting outcome. If you add a fill layer, fill with colour and then empty the fill layer using fill tool, and then refill with same colour, the opacity is different. Perhaps this effect is what you are encountering?

IPad Pro 10.5/512GB   lpadOS 15.3 Apple Pencil (1st gen), Affinity Photo 1.10.5 Affinity Design 1.10.5

Official Online iPad Help documents (multi-lingual) here: https://affinity.help/

PDF Help files available here:

Affinity Photo 1.9.2-help.pdf 

Affinity Designer Help File 1.9.7.pdf

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4 hours ago, Meorge said:

Using the Flood Fill Tool, erase all content on the Fill Layer, so that none of its color shows.

Use the Fill tool instead. Then the brush works to hide/reveal the colour of the fill.

IPad Pro 10.5/512GB   lpadOS 15.3 Apple Pencil (1st gen), Affinity Photo 1.10.5 Affinity Design 1.10.5

Official Online iPad Help documents (multi-lingual) here: https://affinity.help/

PDF Help files available here:

Affinity Photo 1.9.2-help.pdf 

Affinity Designer Help File 1.9.7.pdf

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13 hours ago, DM1 said:

Use the Fill tool instead. Then the brush works to hide/reveal the colour of the fill.

Thanks so much for investigating this further, I really appreciate it! I just tried replicating the behavior without using the Flood Fill tool (not really even using the regular Fill tool), and the issue still persists, unfortunately. In my attached video I followed the following steps:

  1. Create a Fill Layer.
  2. Use the Paint Brush Tool with a 0% white color to create a "hole" in the Fill Layer.
  3. Change the Paint Brush Tool to use a 100% white color and paint the "hole" back in.

It's difficult to see in the video, but there is definitely a difference between the original Fill Layer color and where I'd painted over it. I made this color difference more pronounced in the attached image. Because of this, I think it might not be an issue exclusive to the Flood Fill Tool and maybe instead related more to this bug report, which was linked in the thread you linked?

 

affinity photo issue.jpg

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IPad Pro 10.5/512GB   lpadOS 15.3 Apple Pencil (1st gen), Affinity Photo 1.10.5 Affinity Design 1.10.5

Official Online iPad Help documents (multi-lingual) here: https://affinity.help/

PDF Help files available here:

Affinity Photo 1.9.2-help.pdf 

Affinity Designer Help File 1.9.7.pdf

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Hi,

i tried hard to reproduce but failed every time.

It would help if you can always show the following in your videos, e.g. before / after edits:

  • color panel (including opacity), in RGB slider  mode (values 0..255)
  • brush settings (reset them to factory. Use only basic brush for test)
  • channels panel, especially isolated to „layer alpha“
  • layers panel, including … details like Layer opacity, blend mode
  • Please create a test document. Save with history. Make a snapshot at start of video. Upload to this thread.
  • use RGB/8 or RGB/16 with sRGB profile

 

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10 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

Hi,

i tried hard to reproduce but failed every time.

It would help if you can always show the following in your videos, e.g. before / after edits:

  • color panel (including opacity), in RGB slider  mode (values 0..255)
  • brush settings (reset them to factory. Use only basic brush for test)
  • channels panel, especially isolated to „layer alpha“
  • layers panel, including … details like Layer opacity, blend mode
  • Please create a test document. Save with history. Make a snapshot at start of video. Upload to this thread.
  • use RGB/8 or RGB/16 with sRGB profile

 

I've attached a small Affinity Photo document that demonstrates the issue, with snapshots for before and after the painting. Additionally, I have a video of me creating the document and displaying the information you requested (color panel with 255,255,255 and 100% opacity, basic factory brush settings, layer information, etc). I wasn't able to get the Layer Alpha (or "Fill Alpha", as the program calls it) to be displayed fully, only the thumbnail. 

I can see the problem persists in Affinity Photo for macOS as well when I open the document exported from the iPad, as seen in the attached screenshot.

Screen Shot 2021-10-06 at 9.29.53 AM.png

Fill layer mask bug.afphoto

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11 minutes ago, Meorge said:

I've attached a small Affinity Photo document that demonstrates the issue, with snapshots for before and after the painting. Additionally, I have a video of me creating the document and displaying the information you requested (color panel with 255,255,255 and 100% opacity, basic factory brush settings, layer information, etc). I wasn't able to get the Layer Alpha (or "Fill Alpha", as the program calls it) to be displayed fully, only the thumbnail. 

I can see the problem persists in Affinity Photo for macOS as well when I open the document exported from the iPad, as seen in the attached screenshot.

Screen Shot 2021-10-06 at 9.29.53 AM.png

Fill layer mask bug.afphoto 23.47 kB · 0 downloads

An update to this: I decided to test out the same procedure using Affinity Photo on macOS, and it appears this problem doesn't appear there. I've attached a video of my process and the Affinity Photo document to this post. I also used the Color Picker Tool to test the difference in color on the iPad document, and it appears there is a 1-value difference between the original Fill Layer and what has been painted over, as shown in the other video attached.

Thinking that this might mean the issue had to do with the Apple Pencil, I decided to go back to the iPad and try replicating the behavior using my finger instead. The issue persisted - simply adding a Fill Layer, switching to the Paint Brush Tool with the default brush and 100% white color, and painting over the Fill Layer with my finger, there was the same difference in color.

AF macOS no bug.afphoto

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Thank you so much for providing the documents.

I can see the issue in the afphoto file from iPad, but still remain unable to to reproduce the same on my own.

First finding:

  • What i can say is that your second brush stroke does not paint pure white, but 254/255 white.

So the next question is to find out why we get this color change at second brush:

  • Did the color of brush change?
  • Did the opacity of brush color change?
  • Is it a rounding issue? This happened before (on Windows), as 1/255 is the smallest value in RGB/8. At this time this is my most likely cause.

If you able to invest more time:

  • Please repeat the full process on iPad
  • Please active Settings>General>Show touches 
  • Please long-press every command, so that it becomes visible for at least 1/2 second in the video what did you do (e.g. selecting tools)
  • Please use transparent background when creating the document. This helps to distinguish in info panel if color or alpha causes the problem.
  • Please use alternative way to erase fill mask: Using channels panel, select alpha, and "invert".
  • Add a pixel layer below the fill layer. Before and after brushing on fill layer, select pixel layer, and make a brush stroke in a fresh free space to document which color was active. then switch back to fill layer and continue.

Possible outcomes:

  • If the brush color changes on pixel level, then an unintended change of brush / brush color occurred.
  • If the brush color stays identical, then i would assume an bug on iPad (again, i cannot reproduce yet), and we need to look for other reasons.

Then, do it another time, but using RGB/16. The difference between them will give more insight:

  • No bug in RGB/16: probably rounding issue (Photo bug, rounding affecting RGB/8 only)
  • Bug in RGB/16, reduced to 1/65535 on alpha channel: (Photo bug, rounding affecting all color formats, least significant bit)
  • Bug in RGB/16, again 1/254 on alpha channel: bug, maybe with colors

Please ensure that all colors in RGB/16 are set correctly, e.g. white should be RGB = 65535, black = 0

This is quite an interesting issue! I like playing Sherlock Holmes. 😂

Edited by NotMyFault
Issue identified after posting. No need for further tests.
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Heureka, now I got it.

the issue happens by the following sequence:

  • create fill layer. Alpha = 255 per default 
  • use brush in black: alpha = 0, to remove any portion
  • use brush in white, to include back: alpha = 254 (wrong, this is the bug)

Issue not limited to fill layer.

same bug with a mask layer.

Definitely a bug on iPad.

@Meorge

Thank you again for spotting this issue, and providing all the input. Sharp eyes. I hope now the mods will rate this as bug and handover to the devs.

Edited by NotMyFault
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Hi,

 

please find below a video and test file.

I use a special procedural texture filter which creates an overlay for selectable alpha values. A pixel is shown red if it’s alpha value is in the selectable range. Otherwise it will become transparent. On iPad, this means white.
There minimum and maximum values can be entered. With this, you can spot the fine difference between alpha 254 and 255.

the video shows that one brush strike of pure RGB white only reaches alpha 254. Only after another strike it will reach alpha 255.

 

Alpha range detectorafphoto_1.afphoto

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6 hours ago, NotMyFault said:

Hi,

 

please find below a video and test file.

I use a special procedural texture filter which creates an overlay for selectable alpha values. A pixel is shown red if it’s alpha value is in the selectable range. Otherwise it will become transparent. On iPad, this means white.
There minimum and maximum values can be entered. With this, you can spot the fine difference between alpha 254 and 255.

the video shows that one brush strike of pure RGB white only reaches alpha 254. Only after another strike it will reach alpha 255.

 

Alpha range detectorafphoto_1.afphoto 21.89 kB · 0 downloads

Thank you so much for reproducing and diagnosing the issue!

At this point, is there anything else I should do for this, or is it all in the hands of the mods/developers now?

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Another slight twist in the story.

The issue is actually caused when painting with white brush on white mask.

Below you find an optimized file / PT filter.

The PT filter recolors alpha values into red, green, blue (or black).

  • You can set r1, r2, r3 to any value between 0 and 255.
  • All pixels having that alpha value get recolored into that color.
  • 3 different values can be visualized and distinguished by color.

for the video I use

  • 253 red
  • 254 green
  • 255 blue

the bug happens when you paint white on white, which gets reduced to 254 (green).

If you paint white on black, result is ok.

 

 

brush on mask issue.afphoto

Edited by NotMyFault
PS: Affects brush on all layers and color channels, not limited to alpha/masks
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Continued testing and found that basic brush in white will lead to lower than white color in any case, both RGB channels on pixel layers, and alpha on masks / fill layers.

In case of painting on masks, you get full white only if old color was pure black. 

In case of painting on pixel layers (RGB channels), the issue is even more severe:

When painting in pure white over a gradient from pure black to pure white:

  • white gets 254 (instead of 255).
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Bump - a comment from mods would be appreciated if this is recognized as bug.

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  • 3 months later...
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Related to 

 

i forget to post the link to my (successful) second attempt to get attention of mods.

 

 

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