Picture Frame – adjust edges for cropping

[thomaso]

By default a picture frame behaves unexpected if its edges get moved to set its cropping mask: it always moves the image inside, maybe to force the image staying centered in the frame. But most often such a centered cropping isn't wanted but instead its four edges should crop image areas of different width. (as discussed a few times, recently here... )

Now I noticed having moved the image within the frame makes the frame behaving as expected. That makes me assume this latter behavior is conceptually meant ('by design') to be the default behavior. So it appears as faulty that a child inside a picture frame must be moved first to prevent it from moving in the next steps (> frame edge adjustment).

 

[walt.farrell]

The default Picture Frame properties are set to Scale to Maximum Fit, and attempt is made to do a smart scaling/positioning to keep the important part of the picture visible. That is, normally, the center. Thus, if you change the frame size, the picture scaling/positioning to keep as much of the central portion visible as possible. This is probably, I think, what most users would want.

You can change the frame properties (button on the Context Toolbar) to change this behavior. Perhaps you would prefer None as the setting?

[thomaso]

No, Walt, as soon I start cropping a picture, I want it to no longer fit at all – nor do I want it to move while cropping, regardless of a reference point position (note I may drag 4 edges). And no, it's not that "most users" want an image to be cropped around its center, nor that most images show relevant parts in their center only, but rather have either several points of interest or are composed off-center by design to increase visual interest, although there are specific types that place an object in the middle, e.g. product shots or passport photos.

However, this topic does not seek workaround suggestions nor one more discussion about available cropping workflows. – As a bug report, it just points out this move-first-to-avoid-move behavior that is so strange that it is hardly in purpose.

[walt.farrell]

Have you tried setting the frame properties to None, as I suggested? That seems to be what you want, and if it does what you want then you simply need to set your frame properties appropriately.

[thomaso]

On 12/9/2020 at 5:27 PM, walt.farrell said:

Have you tried setting the frame properties to None, as I suggested?

Haven't you tried it before suggesting it? – No, it does not work. I still have to move the image first to get it not moved when adjusting the frame edge positions. That's why I opened this topic + gave you a note that I am not asking for workaround ideas or substitute discussions.

[walt.farrell]

3 hours ago, thomaso said:

Haven't you tried it before suggesting it? – No, it does not work. I still have to move the image first to get it not moved when adjusting the frame edge positions. That's why I opened this topic + gave you a note that I am not asking for workaround ideas or substitute discussions.

No; you already have a test file, so it's easiest for you to check.

You believe this is a bug; I believe it is working as intended and is a consequence of the "smart" scaling/cropping function built into picture frames. Serif will tell us one way or the other eventually, and then you'll know for sure whether you need a workaround.

If you do, and if specifyng None didn't do work, then a couple of other workarounds are (a) using a simple rectangle rather than a picture frame or (b) placing the image directly on the page and using the Crop Tool to do the cropping.

[thomaso]

20 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

No; you already have a test file, so it's easiest for you to check.

That's ridiculous – it's two layers only to create a test file, whereas the app creates the second for you.

Instead of writing suggestions which you haven't proofed and of repeatedly insisting to follow your suggestion / opinion it would be easier if you simply try it yourself. Then, after testing your "believe" by yourself: If you really would be willing to help you would upload a screencast demonstrating it working with a picture frame.

As I noted several times I am not seeking in this topic for workarounds or discussions about workarounds - nevertheless you still insist to post even more of your offtopic ideas. With your total amount of posts you should also know that both rectangle and cropping tool not only behave different than picture frames but also have known / logged issues.

The fact that you don't even proof your ideas makes it obvious that for you it is indeed not a matter of "easiest" or not to "have a test file" – you seem just to prefer writing + producing posts, bit regardless of their use or need. I wouldn't mind if you do it elsewhere but in this topic I have a serious interest and your behavior feels like outrageous spam. So, please, stop posting more ideas, opinions or believes in this thread. Thank you!

[Gabe]

Hi both,

What you first describe Thomaso is the expected behaviour. When you convert an image to a picture frame, it will have Scale to Max fit. Adjusting the text frame size will auto-center the image. This is expected. 

The bug here is in fact Walt's workaround, which I would have expected to work. However, setting the scale to "none" still centres the image when the frame is resized. Issue logged. 

I completely missed the anchor option before. To get your "expected" behaviour, you would need to unset the centre anchor point, as well as set the scale to "none" as Walt suggested. 

[prophet]

I think you are both missing the bug @thomaso is trying to explain. Indeed, the default property of an image converted to picture frame is Scale to Max with a center anchor, but watching the video shows that default property is lost when he moves the image within the frame. Looks like he uses the arrows to nudge it a bit to the right and then back. When he returns to manipulate the picture frame, the image inside no longer follows the scaling and anchoring.

I can't replicate the bug myself. When I follow the same steps, my picture frame retains the scaling and anchoring properties. But the video does seem to show a different behavior.

[thomaso]

Thanks to @prophet for pointing to a major aspect of this topic – though I actually appreciate the possibility to move any of the 4 frame edges to crop the containing image without moving it.

It's interesting to note if this move-first-to-avoid-moving-later behavior appears to me only. – Actually I appreciate the result, it' just the workflow to achieve this which appears wrong: doing something to prevent it from doing in future.

Apropros future: It's also weird that the picture frame "Property" options behave like buttons rather than settings – similar to the different behavior for text when using a.) menu "Text" > "Capitalisation" or b.) panel "Character" > "Typography" > Caps.

Unfortunately, the "Lock children" button theoretically could be used to prevent the image from moving while scaling its frame – but this workflow would be more cumbersome than the move-first-to-avoid-later-moves workflow and therefore makes less sense because of various reasons:
1.  its hidden position in the user interface
2.  its attitude to influence other actions as well
3.  its inability to be toggled with a keyboard shortcut
4.  its attitude to remain permanently

So, the only way to get the desired behavior of a not-moving image when moving its parent frame edges currently seems to be using that move-first action. The disturbing aspect is not Scaling (which may get applied via the "Property" options) but is this forced Moving.

[thomaso]

4 hours ago, Gabe said:

The bug here is in fact Walt's workaround, which I would have expected to work. However, setting the scale to "none" still centres the image when the frame is resized. Issue logged. 

I completely missed the anchor option before. To get your "expected" behaviour, you would need to unset the centre anchor point, as well as set the scale to "none" as Walt suggested. 

Serious? Could you please show in a screencast the cropping of an image inside a picture frame on the 4 frame edges differently? In my experience the Walt-anchor-point-workflow requires to set the anchor point for moves of different frame edges to be set separately. Quite cumbersome. Unfortunately Walt refuses to show what he states.

Compared to the Walt-anchor-point-workflow I definitely prefer the move-first-to-prevent-moving workflow – it's just its weird UI to make the frame behave this way which appears buggy.

[walt.farrell]

1 hour ago, thomaso said:

Walt-anchor-point-workflow requires to set the anchor point for moves of different frame edges to be set separately. Quite cumbersome. Unfortunately Walt refuses to show what he states.

I have not mentioned the anchor point in this (or as far as I can remember) any other discussion about picture frames. I have only suggested that using None might avoid the automatic recentering when you adjust the picture frame borders.

Edit: However, I agree with @Gabe that setting the Frame Property to None and turning off the center anchor point does seem to do what you've said you want. I had missed the necessity of turning off the anchor when I earlier suggested that you try that to see if it would do what you wanted.

[walt.farrell]

1 hour ago, thomaso said:

In my experience the Walt-anchor-point-workflow requires to set the anchor point for moves of different frame edges to be set separately. Quite cumbersome.

1. Click the Frame Properties button.
2. Click the icon by None
3. If the center anchor is set (larger square than the other squares) click it to turn off the anchor.
4. Click Done.

Do whatever adjusting to any/all of the frame edges you want to do.

Also, if you find that this behavior is generally what you want, the following works when I try it:

• Draw a Picture Frame.
• Click the Frame Properties button. Set scaling to None, unset center anchor point.
• Edit > Defaults > Synchronize from Selection. At this point, new Picture Frames that you create in this document will have scaling set to None and an unset anchor.
• Edit > Defaults > Save. At this point, new Picture Frames that you create in new documents will have the scaling set to None and an unset anchor.

[Gabe]

On 12/11/2020 at 8:18 PM, thomaso said:

Serious? Could you please show in a screencast the cropping of an image inside a picture frame on the 4 frame edges differently? In my experience the Walt-anchor-point-workflow requires to set the anchor point for moves of different frame edges to be set separately. Quite cumbersome. Unfortunately Walt refuses to show what he states.

Compared to the Walt-anchor-point-workflow I definitely prefer the move-first-to-prevent-moving workflow – it's just its weird UI to make the frame behave this way which appears buggy.

Walt has already gave you the steps, but here's a screen recording   

[prophet]

But still…do @Gabe or @walt.farrell see what's happening in @thomaso's video? It is showing a weird behavior.

[thomaso]

On 12/11/2020 at 10:57 PM, walt.farrell said:

3. If the center anchor is set (larger square than the other squares) click it to turn off the anchor.

4 hours ago, Gabe said:

Walt has already gave you the steps, but here's a screen recording   

Wow, thank you both! – Sorry, I haven't noticed before that the anchor square can be set "off" and its point to "none" (I simply missed to click an already selected anchor point, like a 2nd click on an already selected button does not work in the UI at e.g. Character Panel > Decorations > U / S).

@Gabe, this UI option would be worth being mentioned in the Help, where currently the anchor point is mentioned with a rather subtle, not quite specific hint only (and without any UI screenshot):

Quote

To resize a picture frame without scaling its content:

Do one of the following before resize:

• Select the picture frame and then check Lock Children on the context toolbar.
• Select the picture frame, select Properties on the context toolbar, and then choose None, ensuring the anchor point is set correctly.

 

Now I would expect that an anchor point if set to "off"/"none" would also work when cropping the content of a picture frame with the app's default "Scale to Max Fit" for 2 of its 4 edges. But then the UI seems to insist to move the image while cropping, the anchor setting is ignored.
Also I would expect that a custom & saved Defaults setting applies not only to a new dragged picture frames but to images converted via right-click menu, too.

These two aspects still appear buggy to me. In the video below...
1.  I drag/create a new picture frame & get my Saved Defaults scaling & anchor setting applied successfully, 
2.  then I convert an image via right-click menu and get a different property result for that new picture frame.
3.  Then I set the anchor point to none (keeping max-scaling) but when cropping the image still gets moved though the anchor "off"/"none" implies to prevent from moving.