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bgeal

Master Page Margins

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I'm experiencing some odd intermittent behaviour when setting margins on a master page. Sometimes when I set the LH margin to 9 and the RH margin to 15 the opposite happens and I get a LH margin of 15 and a RH margin of 9. If I then change the margins in spread setup to LH 15 and RH 9 I then get a LH of 9 and RH of 15. I'm not using facing pages. 

If I delete the master and set up a new one the margins behave as expected.

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Hi bgeal,

Are you able to reproduce this in a new document? I've not managed to reproduce the margins being applied incorrectly yet but there might be something set in your document which is causing this bug to happen.

If you are able to reproduce it within a document but not on a new document can you attach it?

Thanks!

 


Serif Europe Ltd. - www.serif.com

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On 2/1/2019 at 3:42 PM, Jon P said:

Are you able to reproduce this in a new document?

Attached a sample .afpub. It is set to facing pages but wants to use single masters, too.

I get various left/right issues.:
– Master R: spread property calls "inner" what appears on the right.
–> Pg 3 (R): confusing mix of page margin vs. object margin.

– Master L: text set to "Away from Spine" appears correct.
–> Pg 2 (L): text appears different as Towards Spine.


v457 master margin inner vs left.afpub


1975897421_mastersinglemargininner2.thumb.jpg.0358c0a8cb534eb18208df4ab981eb4b.jpg

72242279_mastersinglemargininner3.thumb.jpg.eeb2b437cd34ef5997e3f689d8ed710f.jpg

 

 

 


macOS 10.12.6,  Macbook Pro 15" + Eizo 24"

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Hi @thomaso,

Not sure if i'm missing something, but your pictures state Master L as being away from spine, but it is set as being towards spine on the master. On Page 2 where this is applied this looks correct, but it looks incorrect on page 4 which is something we have logged (that the last/first page of a facing page document can get the spine alignment incorrect).

The text frame and page margins being out of sync is expected. Essentially MAster R single is viewed as a left page since it is a single master page, so when assigned to be the right page of a facing page document it flips the margins. It doesn't flip the content however, there is some discussion maybe on if we should flip the content, but it might not be what other users expect.

 


Serif Europe Ltd. - www.serif.com

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Wouldn't it be better to allow the single page masters to be explicitly configured as being either left or right pages, then use the margins from that setting so that the content and margins are in agreement?

There could then be an additional "auto" setting that would shift (not flip) the margins and content to match whichever side of the spine it is on.

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8 hours ago, Jon P said:

your pictures state Master L as being away from spine, but it is set as being towards spine on the master.

Oh, indeed. But then the issue occurs on the master already. In this screenshot you see the master L text appears away from spine (though set towards). Whereas the master L and page 4 shows the same text alignment, page 2 differs. That makes it even more confusing for me. So, when have logged the text alignment on page 4 (or first/last page) what is about the fact, that the master L shows the same alignment? Is that an additional issue (besides your logged for 1st/last page)?

1745637835_mastersinglepagemargin4.jpg.e9b78685d04c43d963ee94f69d6b9b03.jpg

8 hours ago, Jon P said:

The text frame and page margins being out of sync is expected. Essentially MAster R single is viewed as a left page since it is a single master page,

Hm? Does that mean a single master in a facing document always is treated as a left page? For what purpose?

However, it occurs also here confusing on the master: 
• The text is aligned "Away from spine" so the Spine is at the smaller margin on the left edge:

609796174_mastersingleRawayspine.jpg.28c9e9ecb4e91e44771f4ff571aeaa2a.jpg


... but in Spread Setup the spine and Inner margin now is on the right, the opposite side. – What's going on there?

1335268336_mastersingleRspreadsetup.jpg.03e9b43e66e5e5245c7512e6d6c86238.jpg


These issues/bugs make it very hard to understand whats going on and even harder to communicate because text (field labels, style info) and pictures (page views) often differ.

In your 1st reply above (February) you wrote " I've not managed to reproduce the margins being applied incorrectly " but how do you define "correctly" in that situation, where text align + Spine + Inner  aren't consistent. Which one of them rules about being "correct"? – Or: Could you upload please a sample .afpub (2 single master pages), which does NOT have one of these confusions, to possibly make it more clear?

 


macOS 10.12.6,  Macbook Pro 15" + Eizo 24"

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12 hours ago, thomaso said:

These issues/bugs make it very hard to understand whats going on and even harder to communicate

I don't think these are bugs but rather questionable design choices.

 

12 hours ago, thomaso said:

Does that mean a single master in a facing document always is treated as a left page?

This should be better explained in the online help, as I am having trouble finding any indication of it.

However, yes, if the master is being treated as a left hand page, then the "inner" margin is on the right side of the page as the page is to the left of the spine.

 

 

That said, this setup is not very forward-thinking.  It makes the assumption that a facing pages document only contains facing pages.  If trifold support and the like are to come later on then a document may have a mix of facing and non-facing pages, as well as center pages in the event of a spread with an odd number of pages.

In this situation, a single-page spread may be applied to a page that is neither left nor right, so the concept of an "inner" or "outer" margin makes no sense.

While currently somewhat consistent with itself, I believe this design is fundamentally flawed when looking at the bigger picture of what may come later.  Publisher was released too early in its design process and some things have slipped through which will make it that much harder to expand in the future without disrupting existing documents or adding complexity to the interface.

As things stand, I would recommend adding a checkbox to the margins panel on a single master when placed in a facing pages document which causes the master to be treated as a left page (as it is right now), but when turned off gives the more "natural" behavior of "left" and "right" margins which do not get flipped when applied.  Something like "arrange margins as having spine on right" or similar.

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2 hours ago, fde101 said:

I don't think these are bugs but rather questionable design choices.

You seem to have a narrowed understanding of "bug": whereas to me a bug is every malfunction within a system, caused by programming code or design layout or concept idea, to you it sounds to be a programmers fault only. – Consider: when a label for a field says "left" or "inner" but its property is visually assigned to "right" or "outer" than the user MUST misuse this field, even if it was named that way in purpose.

But here it gets even worse because 2 opposite understandings are mixed within 1 situation: While "inner" means "outer" for the Margin, and the Spine refers to "inner" at the same time, the confusion gets doubled: Where is "inner" for the Spine? Which understanding of "left"/"right" is used in that moment for the spine: still the common use, or the one of margin?

The source of this confusion is irrelevant to the user who does not need to know or understand how it happened (either due to programmers or designers typo or because of concept). Although it might help the user to understand why it happened in the meaning of what purpose, even this knowledge would not solve the misuse of left / right + inside / outside.


macOS 10.12.6,  Macbook Pro 15" + Eizo 24"

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In this case, the software is behaving as designed, thus it is not a bug.  If the results are not what you expect, than the bug is in your thinking, not in the software.

 

A "true" design flaw would be a bug in the design of the software rather than necessarily a code issue, I would agree that far, but for this to be the case the flaw would need to prevent the implementation of the software from achieving the developer's intent.  As it is unclear what the intent of the developers is in this case, while I, not knowing what Serif's developers are planning, may consider this a design flaw (or more precisely a poor design), Serif may have something else in mind for this, so it is unclear whether or not this will turn into a bug later on.

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Ok, there is *definitely* a bug here, but the exact extent of what is a bug is not 100% clear.

If you have the spread setup window open for a single-page master on a facing pages document, it starts with "Inner" and "Outer" labels, but switching to Facing then back to Single mode changes the labels to "Left" and "Right" - and when adding a new master page the labels are "Left" and "Right" as well.

@Jon P, it appears that either the labels are goofed upon opening the window, or else they are wrong in the Add Master window and then miscorrect themselves when switching modes in the spread setup window...

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I've logged that issue, does just seem to be a label mix up though, but thanks for reporting.

Quote

Hm? Does that mean a single master in a facing document always is treated as a left page? For what purpose?

For now, yes that is the case. It's just the way it's been designed.


Serif Europe Ltd. - www.serif.com

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