Can Affinity Photo export a non-color-corrected TIFF for use in the Calibrite/ X-Rite ICC profile generator?

[Grant Robertson]

It has been well established that Serif is highly unlikely to ever include integration with any calibration vendors' software in the Affinity products. Fortunately, many of these calibration tools will also generate an ICC profile which can be attached to an image file. The Calibrite/ X-Rite tool requires a TIFF file that has had no color correction whatsoever done to it. Unfortunately, they only provide instructions for exporting said TIFF file using Capture One, a very expensive program. I have included a screen shot of those instructions. Basically, they say to set the ICC profile to "no correction" and set the color curve to "linear response." Then export the TIFF as 16-bit, uncompressed, with the original camera profile that same "No Color Correction" profile embedded.

So, the question is: Can Affinity Photo 2.1.1 export a similarly non-corrected TIFF file? If so, how?

Conclusion: 

Affinity Photo can not export a non-corrected TIFF because it is impossible to get Affinity Photo to NOT apply any correction in the Develop Persona. It will always correct the image, both for viewing and for any exports. In addition, I have learned (thanks to @lepr that Affinity Photo would never be able to make use of any ICC Profile generated by the Calibrite software because, again, Affinity Photo does not let you change the ICC profile that it uses when in the Develop Persona. (If you ask me, they should change the name to something like "Let Us Force You to Do What We Want You To Do With Your RAW Files Persona. But anyway...) I have a tiny shred of doubt that this is true. But that doubt is based entirely on wishful thinking. So I'll see if I can prove @lepr wrong. But I doubt I will be able to.

I have concluded that I will need to use the free and open source tools ImageMagick (suggested by @v_kyr) and RawTherapee, along with some scripts in my favorite DAM utility, IMatch, to get what I need done. It is a little disappointing to need to completely ignore the Develop Persona within Affinity Photo but oh well. And it will take more work. But I think I will be able to do it. After using those tools, I will then need to use a different script to export a color corrected TIFF file to be opened with Affinity Photo for any edits that need to be applied to only specific areas of the image.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Grant Robertson
Corrected one step. Edit is underlined. Added Conclusion.

[walt.farrell]

I don't think it can do that.

Also, even if you have an image file with an ICC (camera) profile attached to it, Affinity Photo won't use that profile.

[Grant Robertson]

1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

I don't think it can do that.

Also, even if you have an image file with an ICC (camera) profile attached to it, Affinity Photo won't use that profile.

First of all. If you don't know the answer, I would prefer that you not just guess. 

Secondly, what is your response to this video clip on the subject of ICC profiles embedded into image files and whether or not affinity photo uses them?

[Grant Robertson]

1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

Also, even if you have an image file with an ICC (camera) profile attached to it, Affinity Photo won't use that profile.

In addition, your statement directly contradicts the second paragraph of this post made by Dan C, a Serif staff member, back in May.

Finally, this article on the Serif website says, "The [Affinity] apps will always colour manage from the document profile to the display profile..."

[walt.farrell]

7 hours ago, Grant Robertson said:

In addition, your statement directly contradicts the second paragraph of this post made by Dan C, a Serif staff member, back in May.

Sorry, but I don't think there's a contradiction. A "document color profile" and a "camera profile" (which you are discussing) are different items. Serif staff have confirmed in the past that Photo does not support camera profiles, and that's a large part of why applications like X-Rite are not supported by Photo.

The RAW file may have a camera profile attached to it. It will be igbored. After Development, the resulting Developed file will have a working ICC profile (e.g., sRGB or ProPhoto RGB, etc.).

You can Develop without making any changes (though you would have to turn off some Develop Assistant options), and you can Export that file without making further corrections. The file will still, as far as I know, at least have the color profile name in it, though you can avoid embedding the actual profile by not embedding Metadata.

I'm not sure whether that counts for your purposes as having "no color correction at all".

 

[lepr]

10 hours ago, Grant Robertson said:

So, the question is: Can Affinity Photo 2.1.1 export a similarly non-corrected TIFF file? If so, how?

No, Affinity can't because the user can't tell the Affinity Develop module to not use its built-in input profile for the camera from which a RAW file came.

[thomaso]

19 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

The RAW file may have a camera profile attached to it. It will be igbored.

6 minutes ago, lepr said:

user can't tell the Affinity Develop module to not use its built-in input profile for the camera

That sounds contradictory. In my impression Walt is right with the point that camera profiles get ignored by APhoto. One indicator is forum threads from users who do not get the expected image appearance when opening a RAW in APhoto and who are advised, for example, to use Canon's software "DigitalPhotoProfessional.app" (DPP) instead in order to have the camera profile data taken into account when opening the file.

Different to a colour profile the camera related data in an image may contain specific aspects that may be set as "custom profiles" in the camera when taking pictures, influencing e.g. saturation, sharpness, etc., which might get read separately with a metadata reader like "exiftool".

So, the question might be whether @Grant Robertson needs to embed in APhoto those camera related data or rather the colour profile of the image. Different to your screenshots (CaptureOne12) to me the version 21 shows a "neutral" option only for JPG while for RAW a "No" or "neutral" options is not available, whereas both can get their curve set to "linear".

[Grant Robertson]

47 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Sorry, but I don't think there's a contradiction. A "document color profile" and a "camera profile" (which you are discussing) are different items. Serif staff have confirmed in the past that Photo does not support camera profiles, and that's a large part of why applications like X-Rite are not supported by Photo.

First, I'm pretty sure a profile is a profile is a profile. The only difference is where in the chain one chooses to use it. Serif's own documentation even warns against using the "monitor profile" as the "document profile." So, it seems one could choose any profile to be the document profile. One may not get good results, because the chosen profile wasn't designed for the link in the chain at which one places it, but it would "work."

Second, the way the Calibrite software works, according to their instructions for Capture One, is that the user is supposed to take the profile generated by their software and embed it into each and every image file that was captured under the same lighting conditions. They don't use the same term, but it is clear they are intending that this generated profile be used at the "document profile" link in the chain.

Third, I have not once mentioned "camera profiles," (up until this sentence). You are the one who inserted the term as a bit of a red herring. You seem intent on driving this conversation up into some kind of a rhetorical ravine, rather than simply discuss the answer to my actual question. That ravine seems erily similar to the "You are not asking the question I want to answer" ravine, which in unfortunately far too common in internet forums.

The term "camera profile" can have many definitions. It can mean a "default color profile" that is embedded into each image captured by a camera. It can mean a color adjustment profile used inside the camera itself to modify how it processes captured image files before actually storing them on the memory card. It can mean a default profile used by some image editing program to be applied when image files do not have an embedded profile. It can also mean a default profile (possibly unique for each camera model) used by some image editing program regardless of whether an image file has an embedded color profile. Despite what Serif claims in their documentation, it is beginning to appear, from other people's responses, that Serif may follow the latter strategy.

Finally, while I respect that you are trying to help, and you likely have lots of experience with Affinity Photo, it appears that you are not, in fact, able to answer my original question. Therefore, I will not waste my time by continuing to follow you up this particular ravine.

[v_kyr]

See some related themes about C1 & CCP & APh herel. Maybe it's of any help (or not) for others here in order to get an overview ...

• Capture One, ColorChecker Passport & Affinity Photo Webinar (EN)
• Capture One, ColorChecker Passport & Affinity Photo Workflow-Webinar (DE)
• Use Capture One and Affinity Photo 2 for retouching
• How to Use ColorChecker Passport in Affinity Photo (forum here)
• ... etc.

[lepr]

 

1 hour ago, thomaso said:

That sounds contradictory. In my impression Walt is right with the point that camera profiles get ignored by APhoto. One indicator is forum threads from users who do not get the expected image appearance when opening a RAW in APhoto and who are advised, for example, to use Canon's software "DigitalPhotoProfessional.app" (DPP) instead in order to have the camera profile data taken into account when opening the file.

It's difficult for me to know how you are interpreting Walt's words and how you are interpreting my words.

Some cameras embed a camera profile in a RAW file, but many don't. When there is not a profile in the RAW, one of the develop software's built-in camera profiles is used, based on the camera make and model information that is embedded in the RAW. Unlike Capture One Pro, Affinity does not allow the user to specify that no camera profile is to be used, and therefore Affinity cannot do what the OP requires.

[thomaso]

24 minutes ago, lepr said:

When there is not a profile in the RAW, one of the develop software's built-in camera profiles is used, based on the camera make and model information that is embedded in the RAW.

Apart from the unclear term "camera profile", does your description also apply to Affinity, or was it meant for non-Affinity develop software only? So, is there a place in the Affinity UI where we can see or set this camera profile – or does Affinity only care for its working profile that is set in the preferences while it ignores the camera make and model information for its colour profile choice when opening the file?

And what does Affinity in your experience if you open an image with or without an embedded profile while the preference option "Convert opened files to working space …" is unticked? And does this concern the literally mentioned colour space only (where from?), or does it mean a certain, app-preset profile, too?

To me Affinity seems to apply even the unticked option anyway and thus a RAW image gets opened with my currently set 'ProPhoto' profile, although this is not used in the image nor in the camera.

The confusion increases if I consider CaptureOne (that mentions a "Generic" profile + camera model, as in my previous screenshot or in your description) and ExifTool, which lists no profile but says "Color Space: Uncalibrated" and show entries like "Red Balance: 2.089844", "Blue Balance: 1.592773" (different from WhiteBalance). – So I see 3 different colour informations for this file: APh: 'ProPhoto' | C1: 'Generic' | Exiftool: 'uncalibrated' & 'red/blue balanced'

[thomaso]

2 hours ago, Grant Robertson said:

First, I'm pretty sure a profile is a profile is a profile. The only difference is where in the chain one chooses to use it.

Regardless of the possibly unclear profile, what does it mean to you if X-Rite requires a RAW being opened with its embedded profile being ignored ("No") but then get exactly this ignored profile embedded for saving the file as TIF? If the profile is required to be embedded in the saved result, why should be ignored for opening? – And/or what working profile does X-Rite expect during this procedure for the file type converting application?

[lepr]

8 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Apart from the unclear term "camera profile", does your description also apply to Affinity, or was it meant for non-Affinity develop software only?

Not sure what is unclear about the term "camera profile" in the context of this thread, but any RAW develop software, including Affinity.

26 minutes ago, thomaso said:

So, is there a place in the Affinity UI where we can see or set this camera profile [?]

Not presently.

26 minutes ago, thomaso said:

– or does Affinity only care for its working profile that is set in the preferences while it ignores the camera make and model information for its colour profile choice when opening the file?

Affinity's develop software uses the camera make and model information to select the appropriate one of its built-in camera profiles and uses that profile and the working space profile of the Develop Persona to convert de-mosaiced RGB values from the camera space to the Develop Persona's working space. 

[lepr]

14 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Regardless of the possibly unclear profile, what does it mean to you if X-Rite requires a RAW being opened with its embedded profile being ignored ("No") but then get exactly this ignored profile embedded for saving the file as TIF? If the profile is required to be embedded in the saved result, why should be ignored for opening? – And/or what working profile does X-Rite expect during this procedure for the file type converting application?

The ignored camera profile does not become embedded in the exported TIFF. A different profile - one which does not perform colour correction - has been specified in an earlier step as the alternative to the camera profile and so that becomes embedded in the TIFF by the option "Embed camera profile". I see why the phrasing of the option can be misleading.

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[Grant Robertson]

7 hours ago, lepr said:

No, Affinity can't because the user can't tell the Affinity Develop module to not use its built-in input profile for the camera from which a RAW file came.

This seems to be the most relevant information for me so far. I find it hard to accept but, unfortunately, easy to believe that Serif decided to lock users out of one of the most important aspects of "developing" RAW files.

I'm not familiar enough with the program to know where to poke around to see if you might be mistaken (I'm sure you wish you were as well), so I'll have to accept defeat.....    For now.

Do you think there might be some kind of workaround, like modifying the metadata in the file itself?

[Grant Robertson]

7 hours ago, thomaso said:

Different to your screenshots (CaptureOne12) to me the version 21 shows a "neutral" option only for JPG while for RAW a "No" or "neutral" options is not available, whereas both can get their curve set to "linear".

I got my screenshot from Calibrite's documentation. So, it's not surprising that it is based on an old version of Capture One. 

Are you also claiming that exporting a non-corrected TIFF file is actually a rare feature, that perhaps only Capture One has? That would really suck. That would mean the only way to use Calibrite's software is to pay a lot of money for Photoshop or pay a lot of money for Capture One. 

[Grant Robertson]

6 hours ago, LondonSquirrel said:

Actually you did in your original post: Then export the TIFF as 16-bit, uncompressed, with the original camera profile embedded.

Good catch. I had scanned through to make sure I wasn't lying, but I missed it. My main point still stands. I'm not trying to modify or swap out any original camera profile. I am simply trying to export a TIFF that has not actually made use of any color profile to adjust the colors away from the way they originally came in the raw file. 

[v_kyr]

1 hour ago, Grant Robertson said:

I am simply trying to export a TIFF that has not actually made use of any color profile to adjust the colors away from the way they originally came in the raw file. 

You can export with an embedded profile and afterwards try to strip that out, or replace one, ... etc. with ImageMagick. See therefor ...

• http://www.imagemagick.org/script/command-line-options.php#profile

Other than that, there are also other ways via Adobe based DNG files and some Adobe DNG tools (like the DNG Profile Editor, SDK ... etc.), but those are then other DNG specific ways.

[thomaso]

 

5 hours ago, lepr said:

Not sure what is unclear about the term "camera profile" in the context of this thread,

@lepr, the unclear parts were for instance here:

9 hours ago, lepr said:

user can't tell the Affinity Develop module to not use its built-in input profile for the camera

10 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

The RAW file may have a camera profile attached to it. It will be igbored.

Either it is impossible not to use it – or it gets ignored (and can't be used).

Or here:

8 hours ago, Grant Robertson said:

First, I'm pretty sure a profile is a profile is a profile. The only difference is where in the chain one chooses to use it.

5 hours ago, lepr said:

one of its built-in camera profiles and uses that profile and the working space profile

While the OP appears to think of only 1 profile you clearly differ between 2 profiles, camera + work space.

 

5 hours ago, lepr said:

A different profile - one which does not perform colour correction - has been specified in an earlier step as the alternative to the camera profile and so that becomes embedded in the TIFF

In my understanding of this thread this "earlier specified" profile does not exist yet but wants to get created by the OP + X-Rite, … because this threads title says "TIFF for use in the Calibrite/ X-Rite ICC profile generator". I assume, once it's done, this newly generated profile will become used as camera / color profile for images of this camera that took this specific RAW which currently needs to get saved as 'neutral' TIF for profile creation.

 

@lacerto, thanks for the screenshot! Indeed, I found it here, too. Do you have an idea why "No color correction" is listed in "Effects" (and sorted between three B&W adjustments)? And, oddly, once selected, the menu entry calls it "Phase One …", which is another camera / software make than the currently used Canon RAW and than Capture One.

->

[lacerto]

Obsolete.

[Grant Robertson]

10 hours ago, thomaso said:

Different to your screenshots (CaptureOne12) to me the version 21 shows a "neutral" option only for JPG while for RAW a "No" or "neutral" options is not available, whereas both can get their curve set to "linear".

Did you look "under Effects" as stated in that screen shot? Here is a YouTube clip of the bit where you choose the "No Color Correction" option.

[Grant Robertson]

9 hours ago, v_kyr said:

See some related themes about C1 & CCP & APh herel. Maybe it's of any help (or not) for others here in order to get an overview ...

• Capture One, ColorChecker Passport & Affinity Photo Webinar (EN)

I tried to watch that video before. But that guy is completely all over the place, so I decided that it would be of no real value to me. Now that you have posted this, I forced myself to suffer through the entire video. Long story short, I was correct. This video has almost nothing to do with what I am trying to do. Yes, he does export a TIFF file from Capture One, then generate an ICC profile using the X-Rite / Calibrite software, following the exact same instructions that I included in the screen shot. However, he absolutely does not use that profile within Affinity Photo. As I said, he just jumps around all over the place. Somewhat after he created a profile and used it for a set of RAW files within Capture One, he separately used capture one to generate a TIFF file from an entirely different RAW file and automatically open that TIFF file in Affinity Photo. Here is a clip from that video showing that part.  Most importantly, this does not get me any closer to answering my original question at all. Nor does it help at all with the follow-up question of: "How to use a profile generated from Calibrite within Affinity Photo?" 

To be very clear: I am not yet asking that follow-up question, and I really wish that people would stop skipping over my current question to beat on the follow-up question. I will cross that bridge when I get to it.

[Grant Robertson]

9 hours ago, lepr said:

Unlike Capture One Pro, Affinity does not allow the user to specify that no camera profile is to be used, and therefore Affinity cannot do what the OP requires.

Thank you for trying to keep the conversation on track.

[Grant Robertson]

8 hours ago, thomaso said:

Apart from the unclear term "camera profile", does your description also apply to Affinity, or was it meant for non-Affinity develop software only? So, is there a place in the Affinity UI where we can see or set this camera profile – or does Affinity only care for its working profile that is set in the preferences while it ignores the camera make and model information for its colour profile choice when opening the file?

And what does Affinity in your experience if you open an image with or without an embedded profile while the preference option "Convert opened files to working space …" is unticked? And does this concern the literally mentioned colour space only (where from?), or does it mean a certain, app-preset profile, too?

To me Affinity seems to apply even the unticked option anyway and thus a RAW image gets opened with my currently set 'ProPhoto' profile, although this is not used in the image nor in the camera.

The confusion increases if I consider CaptureOne (that mentions a "Generic" profile + camera model, as in my previous screenshot or in your description) and ExifTool, which lists no profile but says "Color Space: Uncalibrated" and show entries like "Red Balance: 2.089844", "Blue Balance: 1.592773" (different from WhiteBalance). – So I see 3 different colour informations for this file: APh: 'ProPhoto' | C1: 'Generic' | Exiftool: 'uncalibrated' & 'red/blue balanced'

It seems to me that this should be discussed in a separate thread. Not that I am not VERY curious as to the answers to your questions. It is just that the people who are really interested in those answers are far more likely to find those answers if this was in a thread of its own.