Bug in handling *.tiff files?!

[mr_rnfr]

Hi all,

not sure if it is a bug or a feature, but obviously the way of handling *.tiff files has chnaged from AP v1 to AP v2.

My typical workflow in v1 was:

1. open the file
2. do some work on it with layers - which meant, AP asked if I want to save the file with layers and of course made larger files
3. after finishing all work: flatten the image (meaning: reduce it to just one layer)

After that last step (reducing everything to just that one single "background" layer) AP automatically switched back to save it as "normal" *.tiff - without layers. Which produced normal sized files.

As it seems, that doesn't work in AP v2 any more. Even if I flatten the image to one layer, AP v2 still handels the file as "*.tiff with layers" - meaning: the file size is much much higher (about 4 times larger) than it should be.

Besides the file size, this results in another effect: the "*.tiff with layers" seems to contain AP v2 specific information - for what ever reason, because a flattened document with just one layer should not contain anything else. Unfortunately those files cannot be opened by older versions of AP any more, because of that hidden meta-information.

The only way to get around this is: Export the flattened *.tiff as new file - this results in small-sized files which can be opened anywhere.

 

To be honest: The need to change the complete workflow to produce files as before, saving it as second file, etc. isn't acceptable. PLease bring the "old" functionalities back - or at least implement an option to really flatten the file to a simple background layer without any AP v2 specific meta-information in it.

[MikeTO]

FWIW I can't duplicate this on macOS.

I opened a TIFF in v1 and v2 and applied an identical assortment of adjustment layers and live filter layers. I flattened the image in both before saving which produced identical file sizes. The resulting v2 TIFF opened fine in v1.

So either this issue is specific to Windows or you're doing something to your TIFF that I didn't try.

Would you be able to share a sample v2 TIFF that can't be opened in v1? I could test it on macOS and if it didn't open in v1 I could try re-saving it from v2 to see if that fixed it. That would help narrow down whether it's a Windows-specific issue.

Cheers

[walt.farrell]

No, there's a bug in Saving TIFF files. It's been reported, but I don't recall if it's been logged with the Developers yet by the QA staff.

I would recomment Exporting for now, rather than Saving them.

40 minutes ago, mr_rnfr said:

the "*.tiff with layers" seems to contain AP v2 specific information - for what ever reason, because a flattened document with just one layer should not contain anything else. Unfortunately those files cannot be opened by older versions of AP any more, because of that hidden meta-information.

Correct. A "TIFF with Affinity Layers" is basically a TIFF with a .afphoto file embedded in it, and the .afphoto format is not compatible from V2 to V1.

[MikeTO]

20 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

No, there's a bug in Saving TIFF files. It's been reported, but I don't recall if it's been logged with the Developers yet by the QA staff.

So saving a completely flattened image with no layers still produces a TIFF with layers? I assume this is just on Windows then.

[walt.farrell]

5 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

So saving a completely flattened image with no layers still produces a TIFF with layers? I assume this is just on Windows then.

If you Open a .tiff file, then try to Save it, you get this dialog:

The first choice should get you a TIFF with embedded Affinity layers (though I haven't confirmed it myself), the second would get a .afphoto file.

[mr_rnfr]

7 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

Would you be able to share a sample v2 TIFF that can't be opened in v1? I could test it on macOS and if it didn't open in v1 I could try re-saving it from v2 to see if that fixed it. That would help narrow down whether it's a Windows-specific issue.

I will try to see what I can do later on. The current pictures are not for public sharing.

9 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

No, there's a bug in Saving TIFF files. It's been reported, but I don't recall if it's been logged with the Developers yet by the QA staff.

I would recomment Exporting for now, rather than Saving them.

Correct. A "TIFF with Affinity Layers" is basically a TIFF with a .afphoto file embedded in it, and the .afphoto format is not compatible from V2 to V1.

Ah, thanks for pointing out, that there indeed seems to be a bug.

Of course: a file with layers contains more information than a plain file. But a flattened file should not be a "layered" *.tiff which contains this information.

27 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

So saving a completely flattened image with no layers still produces a TIFF with layers?

At least it seems so for the time being.

As described, in v1 AP automatically saved it without layers after flattening, but that does not work for v2 any more.

18 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

The first choice should get you a TIFF with embedded Affinity layers (though I haven't confirmed it myself), the second would get a .afphoto file.

Exactly like that. Which is fine - as long as the document really contains layers. Which is not the case and therefore it should not be saved "with layers". Like it was in the version before.

[MikeTO]

24 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

If you Open a .tiff file, then try to Save it, you get this dialog:

The first choice should get you a TIFF with embedded Affinity layers (though I haven't confirmed it myself), the second would get a .afphoto file.

Hmm, I hadn't seen that before so I opened 3 TIFF files and got it with 2 of them. It must be specific to certain types of TIFF files.

[mr_rnfr]

3 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

It must be specific to certain types of TIFF files.

Well, I didn't change my worklflow for ages, it's always the same:

1. RAW development in CaptureOne
2. Export as 16bit TIFF to Affinity Photo
3. Do the retouching work on different layers - which will result in the dialog as shown, because of course in that case there are layers
4. After work is done: flatten the image to just one layer

Step 4 in APv1 results in a file with just one locked layer named "Background".

In APv2 it's also just one layer, but it's not locked and it's also not named "Background" but "Pixel" - I guess that's why it is still considered to be a "layered *.tiff". But there is no way of changing this - except exporting the image as new file with the chechbox "include layers" deselected - and that's something that has automatically been done in AP v1.

[walt.farrell]

48 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

So saving a completely flattened image with no layers still produces a TIFF with layers? I assume this is just on Windows then.

Yes, seems to just be on Windows.

Here's a .tiff file that I Opened, then Saved, which got the dialog above. I chose to Save with Layers. It no longer opens in Photo V1. At this point, Windows V2 users need to use Export, not Save, to get a good, standard TIFF file.

 

_DSC0422.tiff

[MikeTO]

32 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Yes, seems to just be on Windows

I duplicated on Mac, it just required certain TIFF files. Others didn't exhibit this issue.

[mr_rnfr]

39 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

I duplicated on Mac, it just required certain TIFF files. Others didn't exhibit this issue.

Can you explain, what "certain TIFF files" means?

[Michail]

2 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

Correct. A "TIFF with Affinity Layers" is basically a TIFF with a .afphoto file embedded in it, and the .afphoto format is not compatible from V2 to V1.

If this were the case, you would not be able to open such a TIFF file with any other image editing apps. Unless layers are completely ignored by all other apps.

[walt.farrell]

25 minutes ago, Michail said:

If this were the case, you would not be able to open such a TIFF file with any other image editing apps. Unless layers are completely ignored by all other apps.

TIFF files are containers, and in addition to a raster image they can hold other proprietary data. Affinity layers are one example of such proprietary data. Photoshop has its own implementation, basically putting a PSD file inside a TIFF.

Applications that do not understand the proprietary data simply ignore it, and use/see the raster image.

[MEB]

Hi @Michail,
Check this FAQ for info about TIFF files and how we handle them.
I'm checking whether this was already logged or not and updating or creating a new issue accordingly. Thanks for reporting it.

[Michail]

22 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Photoshop has its own implementation, basically putting a PSD file inside a TIFF.

So then my guess was right.
But it is interesting what you write about Photoshop. If the layer implementation is PSD files, then Affinity Photo should be able to display layers in Photoshop files, because Photo can interpret PSD. As far as I know, however, Photo cannot display layers of files created with Photoshop.

[walt.farrell]

1 minute ago, Michail said:

As far as I know, however, Photo cannot display layers of files created with Photoshop.

I believe that Affinity can display the same PSD data from within PS-created TIFF files (with layers) as it can for PSD. I don't have any files to test that with, but it's been discussed here in the forums before.

[Michail]

12 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

I believe that Affinity can display the same PSD data from within PS-created TIFF files (with layers) as it can for PSD. I don't have any files to test that with, but it's been discussed here in the forums before.

Yes, PSD levels are actually interpreted. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that was always the case. For me, this is a good realisation 

[Affinity Info Bot]

The issue "Non Live Filters are prompting the app to ask if the user wants to save a TIFF with layers or flattened" (REF: AFP-5635) has been fixed by the developers in internal build "2.1.0.1742".
This fix should soon be available as a customer beta and is planned for inclusion in the next customer release.
Customer beta builds are announced here and you can participate by following these instructions.
If you still experience this problem once you are using that build version (or later) please reply to this thread including @Serif Info Bot to notify us.