Didge Posted November 18, 2022 Posted November 18, 2022 I've spent many a long hour manually creating and updating endnotes in APub v1 - simply because it lacked the functionality to do this automatically. I was looking forward to upgrading to v2 just so I could hand this laborious chore over to the software. After replacing many of the endnotes in my current project, I discovered that APub cannot handle endnotes entered in tables. After adding endnotes in the text (which worked fine), I wanted to create endnotes in a table - not unreasonable - I have about 50 tables in this document, with all my manually-entered endnotes nicely arranged in numerical order. But ... Rather than following the existing number sequence, APub2 gets lost when an endnote is entered in a table. So - instead of endnote numbering like ... 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 ... , endnotes go 17, 18, 19, 20, 20, 21 ... Yes - there are two endnotes #20 - although there should be no duplicates. - Clicking on the first #20 in the endnotes takes me to #20 in a table - Clicking on the second #20 in the endnotes takes me to #20 in the text I know you can use the Notes palette to specify how numbering is controlled - I set numbering to begin at 1 and 'Restart Every Document', so endnotes should begin at 1 and increment linearly with every added note until it reaches the last note. And it does a great job of that - until a note reference is entered in a Table. Adding notes in tables sometimes causes existing references to swap places - so, for example, references 8 & 9 become 9 & 8, or the numbering sequence gets out of step, so what was 18, 19, 20, 21 in the text becomes 18, 19, 20, 20, 3 when a reference is entered in a table. Endnotes do not work, so I have to go back to doing it manually. Another v2 disappointment ? Quote
Didge Posted November 18, 2022 Author Posted November 18, 2022 Thanks Anto, I dont really understand that thread, but its interesting to see others having trouble with this feature. I tested many permutations of settings, moving endnote references etc - it is definitely broken. Quote
Pyanepsion Posted November 18, 2022 Posted November 18, 2022 Hello,@Gary.JONES, Without seeing the file, it is difficult, if not impossible, to understand where the error lies! Quote 6 cœurs, 12 processus - Windows 11 pro - 4K - DirectX 12 - Suite universelle Affinity (Affinity Publisher, Affinity Designer, Affinity Photo). ███ Mais je vous le demande, peut-on imaginer une police sans sérifs ?
Didge Posted November 18, 2022 Author Posted November 18, 2022 A better way to approach this would be for others to try to reproduce the problem ... 1. Create a document with some text 2. Create some tables and populate them with text 3. Sprinkle some endnote reference in the text and in the tables 4. See whether APub correctly resolves the endnotes. Quote
Pyanepsion Posted November 18, 2022 Posted November 18, 2022 @Gary.JONES I managed to reproduce the error. It comes from creating endnotes directly from the Text/Note/Endnote menu without first setting the style and behaviour of endnotes in the Windows/References/Note menu. In this case, the default settings are used, and in this case it is a zone numbering. Simply make the settings, select the whole document and check Restart numbering. sfriedberg 1 Quote 6 cœurs, 12 processus - Windows 11 pro - 4K - DirectX 12 - Suite universelle Affinity (Affinity Publisher, Affinity Designer, Affinity Photo). ███ Mais je vous le demande, peut-on imaginer une police sans sérifs ?
Didge Posted November 18, 2022 Author Posted November 18, 2022 Hi Pyanepsion, Thanks for that info ... As I mentioned in my original post, I did set the Notes style and renumbering before I started entering endnotes. Although using 'Restart Numbering' with the whole document selected does refresh the numbering, the order is still completely wrong. So - instead of going ... 7, 8, 9, 10 ... , the endnote references now go ... 7, 20, 8, 9 ... with #20 in a table between numbers #7 and #8 (which should be #9) Removing the incorrect #20 endnote reference doesn't help, because the number 20 comes after the other notes, so it is simply removed from the end of the list, and the earlier references remain in the wrong order, with the reference for #8 missing - so the numbering for every subsequent reference is one less than it should be. Removing endnote references from tables results in references in the text resetting to the correct order from a numerical point of view, but then I'm missing about 50 endnote references currently residing in tables. Even if the numbering in the text is correct, it goes wrong when a reference is inserted in a table - even after resetting the numbering. Behaviour is the same whether notes are inserted from the Text menu or from the Notes pane. And you end up with multiple endnotes with the same reference number - which is clearly a bug. So - your suggestion hasn't worked for me unfortunately. What we need here is for numbering to work intuitively, rather than having to implement work-arounds for something that is clearly not working the way it's expected to. By 'expected', I mean correctly, without duplicating endnotes references. On a related issue, using a checkbox for 'Reset Numbering Now' is completely wrong - this should be a button, which is greyed out once the numbering has been reset, and which reactivates when the numbering is resettable. Quote
Didge Posted November 19, 2022 Author Posted November 19, 2022 An update after further testing ... 1. Numbering in text frames works really well - I like the buttons in the Notes pane that take you from note reference to endnote and back again; 2. 'Select All' does not include floating tables - it only selects in-line tables. Therefore, trying to select all the text in a document to reset numbering does not work if any of the endnote references are in floating tables. 3. Numbering works as expected for endnote references in text frames, but not for references in tables. 4. None of the strategies I've tried - eg 'Restart numbering' etc has worked. 5. Any footnote reference in a table (whether floating or inline) is treated as though it belongs in a separate section - and is placed at the END of the endnote table. This explains why some numbering seemed to 'swap places' when a new reference was added to a table - the newly added reference does not follow the ordered sequence - it is appended to the end of the endnotes. Attached below is my list of endnotes. References were inserted alongside my manually-entered references in numerical order from 1 to 39. You can see that all endnotes having references in a table are listed at the end - with the numbering (incorrectly) rearranged. So - there we have an explanation of what happens - the question now is how to fix APub v2 so it lists notes in the correct order. One other thing ... Sometimes, APub2 takes a few minutes (!) to update the endnote references. So, if you move a reference, it is not necessarily relflected immediately in the endnote table - a trap to watch out for. Quote
MikeTO Posted November 19, 2022 Posted November 19, 2022 14 hours ago, Gary.JONES said: 2. 'Select All' does not include floating tables - it only selects in-line tables. Therefore, trying to select all the text in a document to reset numbering does not work if any of the endnote references are in floating tables. I believe this is as designed. Putting aside notes for a moment, if you floated an artistic text object in a text frame, perhaps for use as a callout, and then selected all the text in the frame and made it Body text, I wouldn't expect the artistic text callout to become Body. 14 hours ago, Gary.JONES said: 3. Numbering works as expected for endnote references in text frames, but not for references in tables. 4. None of the strategies I've tried - eg 'Restart numbering' etc has worked. 5. Any footnote reference in a table (whether floating or inline) is treated as though it belongs in a separate section - and is placed at the END of the endnote table. This explains why some numbering seemed to 'swap places' when a new reference was added to a table - the newly added reference does not follow the ordered sequence - it is appended to the end of the endnotes. I tested this and found: Notes are numbered in layers from the bottom to top of the layer stack like everything else in Affinity Within a text frame, notes are numbered from start to end as you'd expect Within a table, notes are numbered from left to right and then top to bottom - I think this makes sense for LTR languages Pinned text objects (artistic text, tables, and text frames) are numbered after all the notes in the parent frame - I think this is where the confusion comes in. If I have text with note #1 followed by an inline table with a note and then more text with a note, I'd expect the note in the table to be #2 and the last note in the text frame to be #3. But #2 and 3 are reversed in Affinity. I think it should work the other way but I'm unsure if this is a bug or just a limitation. I was unable to duplicate your issue with duplicated note numbers but I suspect it's because you pinned them before setting the note numbering system. I tried that and couldn't duplicate it so I don't know the steps to reproduce it. Serif may ask to see your document later since it's not easily reproducible. I torture tested notes and tables today - I created a note in a table that was pinned inside a table with its own note that was pinned inside a text frame. Frankly, I'm surprised the footnote numbering worked at all but I failed to break the numbering. The note system in Affinity really is the best I've seen. Tip: When pinning a table inside a text frame, use the Pinning panel rather than copying and pasting the table into the frame otherwise you might encounter a crash. Brian_J 1 Quote Download a free PDF manual for Affinity Publisher 2.5 Download a quick reference chart for Affinity's Special Characters Affinity 2.5 for macOS Sequoia 15.3, MacBook Pro (M4 Pro) and iPad Air (M2)
MikeTO Posted November 19, 2022 Posted November 19, 2022 To clarify: Notes are numbered in layers from the bottom to top of the layer stack like everything else in Affinity Within a story (series of linked text frames), notes are numbered from start to end as you'd expect Within a table, notes are numbered from left to right and then top to bottom - I think this makes sense for LTR languages Pinned text objects (artistic text, tables, and text frames) are numbered after all the notes in the parent story - I think this is where the confusion comes in. If I have text with note #1 followed by an inline table with a note and then more text with a note, I'd expect the note in the table to be #2 and the last note in the text frame to be #3. But #2 and 3 are reversed in Affinity. I think it should work the other way but I'm unsure if this is a bug or just a limitation. Quote Download a free PDF manual for Affinity Publisher 2.5 Download a quick reference chart for Affinity's Special Characters Affinity 2.5 for macOS Sequoia 15.3, MacBook Pro (M4 Pro) and iPad Air (M2)
Pyanepsion Posted November 19, 2022 Posted November 19, 2022 15 hours ago, Gary.JONES said: An update after further testing ... The handling is not obvious the first time, but if you make a mistake you can do it anyway. Quote 6 cœurs, 12 processus - Windows 11 pro - 4K - DirectX 12 - Suite universelle Affinity (Affinity Publisher, Affinity Designer, Affinity Photo). ███ Mais je vous le demande, peut-on imaginer une police sans sérifs ?
Didge Posted November 20, 2022 Author Posted November 20, 2022 7 hours ago, MikeTO said: I believe this is as designed. Putting aside notes for a moment, if you floated an artistic text object in a text frame, perhaps for use as a callout, and then selected all the text in the frame and made it Body text, I wouldn't expect the artistic text callout to become Body. I tested this and found: Notes are numbered in layers from the bottom to top of the layer stack like everything else in Affinity Within a text frame, notes are numbered from start to end as you'd expect Within a table, notes are numbered from left to right and then top to bottom - I think this makes sense for LTR languages Pinned text objects (artistic text, tables, and text frames) are numbered after all the notes in the parent frame - I think this is where the confusion comes in. If I have text with note #1 followed by an inline table with a note and then more text with a note, I'd expect the note in the table to be #2 and the last note in the text frame to be #3. But #2 and 3 are reversed in Affinity. I think it should work the other way but I'm unsure if this is a bug or just a limitation. I was unable to duplicate your issue with duplicated note numbers but I suspect it's because you pinned them before setting the note numbering system. I tried that and couldn't duplicate it so I don't know the steps to reproduce it. Serif may ask to see your document later since it's not easily reproducible. I torture tested notes and tables today - I created a note in a table that was pinned inside a table with its own note that was pinned inside a text frame. Frankly, I'm surprised the footnote numbering worked at all but I failed to break the numbering. The note system in Affinity really is the best I've seen. Tip: When pinning a table inside a text frame, use the Pinning panel rather than copying and pasting the table into the frame otherwise you might encounter a crash. 7 hours ago, MikeTO said: I believe this is as designed. Putting aside notes for a moment, if you floated an artistic text object in a text frame, perhaps for use as a callout, and then selected all the text in the frame and made it Body text, I wouldn't expect the artistic text callout to become Body Hmmm - IMHO perhaps it should - you could always revert a specific frame back to floating. Quote
Didge Posted November 20, 2022 Author Posted November 20, 2022 Just now, Gary.JONES said: If I have text with note #1 followed by an inline table with a note and then more text with a note, I'd expect the note in the table to be #2 and the last note in the text frame to be #3. Yes - that is how I would expect it to work. As it stands, Notes are not useful to me at all because apparently there is no way to make the numbering follow a linear sequence that includes tables. Quote
Didge Posted November 20, 2022 Author Posted November 20, 2022 4 minutes ago, Gary.JONES said: I was unable to duplicate your issue with duplicated note numbers but I suspect it's because you pinned them before setting the note numbering system. I crash-tested this by inserting notes after setting the note numbering system. It might be a red herring, because I noticed that sometimes it takes 30+ seconds for the numbers to re-sequence after changing the numbering mode. If you wait long enough, it generally seems to work. Quote
Didge Posted November 20, 2022 Author Posted November 20, 2022 6 minutes ago, Gary.JONES said: When pinning a table inside a text frame, use the Pinning panel rather than copying and pasting the table into the frame otherwise you might encounter a crash. Yes - I always use the pinning panel. One thing that still frustrates is the difficulty of getting the text cursor inside a pinned text frame. I usually have to convert the table to floating, place the cursor, then go back to pinned to edit. I reported this to Affinity in V1, but it still happens in V2. Any suggestions on how to avoid this would be welcome. Quote
Didge Posted November 20, 2022 Author Posted November 20, 2022 16 hours ago, anto said: Try ALT+click. Hi Anto, I'm on Mac, so there is no 'alt' key as such ... but OPT click works !! Thanks for the tip - that has been a huge help For Affinity - I've searched for a solution to this in the online Help - but I couldn't find anything - would be good to make sure this is documented. Quote
Didge Posted November 20, 2022 Author Posted November 20, 2022 21 hours ago, Gary.JONES said: Yes - that is how I would expect it to work. As it stands, Notes are not useful to me at all because apparently there is no way to make the numbering follow a linear sequence that includes tables. BTW ... If tables are in-line, then I think anyone would reasonably expect the numbering of notes to be inline as well - that is, progressing in the same order as the note references. IMHO, numbering tables separately makes no sense at all. Quote
sfriedberg Posted November 20, 2022 Posted November 20, 2022 23 hours ago, Gary.JONES said: One thing that still frustrates is the difficulty of getting the text cursor inside a pinned text frame. Yes, this is very annoying. I much more frequently have pinned tables rather than pinned text frames, and for those I select the table in the Layers panel. Then I can easily get a cursor inside the table. I will have to try the ALT-click tip to see if it works with tables, too. Quote
Didge Posted November 20, 2022 Author Posted November 20, 2022 Agree that. Actually my situation related to tables particularly. The layers panel works OK for selecting images placed inside tables, but it doesn't work for selecting text. Quote
sfriedberg Posted November 23, 2022 Posted November 23, 2022 Yeah, I can't select the text directly from the Layers panel, but it does let me get the cursor into the table. Once Publisher cooperates that far, normal mouse selection seems to work within the table, even if I jump from one cell to another. Quote
Didge Posted November 23, 2022 Author Posted November 23, 2022 Yes - I've used that trick too Unfortunately, it only works when the table contains a graphic - but Anto's Opt/click suggestion works just fine Quote
Petar Petrenko Posted November 23, 2022 Posted November 23, 2022 The problem is that the text inside tables is not part of the body text (not linked with it), so Publisher is confused how to connect them. Quote All the latest releases of Designer, Photo and Publisher (retail and beta) on MacOS and Windows. 15” Dell Inspiron 7559 i7 ● Windows 10 x64 Pro ● Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M) ● 16 GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600 MHz (8GBx2) ● NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4 GB GDDR5 ● 500 GB SSD + 1 TB HDD ● UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED - Backlit Touch Display 32” LG 32UN650-W display ● 3840 x 2160 UHD, IPS, HDR10 ● Color Gamut: DCI-P3 95%, Color Calibrated ● 2 x HDMI, 1 x DisplayPort 13.3” MacBook Pro (2017) ● Ventura 13.6 ● Intel Core i7 (3.50 GHz Dual Core) ● 16 GB 2133 MHz LPDDR3 ● Intel Iris Plus Graphics 650 1536 MB ● 500 GB SSD ● Retina Display (3360 x 2100)
Didge Posted November 23, 2022 Author Posted November 23, 2022 Hmmm ... That appears to be how it is, but not how it should be. If tables are inline, then the text inside the tables should be inline as well. Quote
Petar Petrenko Posted November 23, 2022 Posted November 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, Gary.JONES said: If tables are inline, then the text inside the tables should be inline as well. Inline or not, text inside a table is not part of the body text flow. When you create a table you don't continue to add body text inside it and then continue outside of the table. Texts inside table cells are separate from each other and from the body text, too. So, this is why the problem occurs. Quote All the latest releases of Designer, Photo and Publisher (retail and beta) on MacOS and Windows. 15” Dell Inspiron 7559 i7 ● Windows 10 x64 Pro ● Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M) ● 16 GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600 MHz (8GBx2) ● NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4 GB GDDR5 ● 500 GB SSD + 1 TB HDD ● UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED - Backlit Touch Display 32” LG 32UN650-W display ● 3840 x 2160 UHD, IPS, HDR10 ● Color Gamut: DCI-P3 95%, Color Calibrated ● 2 x HDMI, 1 x DisplayPort 13.3” MacBook Pro (2017) ● Ventura 13.6 ● Intel Core i7 (3.50 GHz Dual Core) ● 16 GB 2133 MHz LPDDR3 ● Intel Iris Plus Graphics 650 1536 MB ● 500 GB SSD ● Retina Display (3360 x 2100)
Petar Petrenko Posted November 23, 2022 Posted November 23, 2022 I, personally, would not use endnotes inside tables. Hope, in near future, Affinity will add table notes which will be numbered separatelly from the other kind of notes. Quote All the latest releases of Designer, Photo and Publisher (retail and beta) on MacOS and Windows. 15” Dell Inspiron 7559 i7 ● Windows 10 x64 Pro ● Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M) ● 16 GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600 MHz (8GBx2) ● NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4 GB GDDR5 ● 500 GB SSD + 1 TB HDD ● UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED - Backlit Touch Display 32” LG 32UN650-W display ● 3840 x 2160 UHD, IPS, HDR10 ● Color Gamut: DCI-P3 95%, Color Calibrated ● 2 x HDMI, 1 x DisplayPort 13.3” MacBook Pro (2017) ● Ventura 13.6 ● Intel Core i7 (3.50 GHz Dual Core) ● 16 GB 2133 MHz LPDDR3 ● Intel Iris Plus Graphics 650 1536 MB ● 500 GB SSD ● Retina Display (3360 x 2100)
Didge Posted November 23, 2022 Author Posted November 23, 2022 That's OK - but others do. The problem is that Table notes are already numbered separately - there is no way to number them sequentially with body text. Quote
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