Conflicting display of leading.

[uneMule]

Bonjour à tous,
L'interlignage est défini dans le paragraphe: 120 % du corps. Aucune modification au niveau des caractères.
Lorsque le paragraphe est sélectionné en totalité, une information unique dans la fenêtre paragraphe et une information unique dans la fenêtre caractères malgré un interlignage différent pour %%% (cela porte à confusion).
Lorsque %%% est sélectionné une information différente (mais normale) dans la fenêtre de caractères.
Ne pourrait-on pas dire (en conservant un %) : ce caractère s'interligne comme le corps (général/par défaut) du paragraphe, ou un corps 12... ce qui apporterait une grande souplesse dans ce type de situation ?

*****

Hello everyone,
The leading is defined in the paragraph: 120% of the size of charactere. No change in the characters panel.
When the whole paragraph is selected, a single information in the paragraph panel and a single information in the characters panel despite a different line spacing for %%% (this is confusing).
When %%% is selected, different (but normal) information in the characters panel.
Couldn't we say (keeping a %): this character is leading like the (general/default) paragraph size, or a size 12... which would provide great flexibility in this type of situation?

[R C-R]

5 minutes ago, uneMule said:

When the whole paragraph is selected, a single information in the paragraph panel and a single information in the characters panel despite a different line spacing for %%% (this is confusing).

I am not sure I understand what you mean but the Character panel shows Leading Override, not Leading. Both Leading & Leading Override can only show one value each so it does not make much sense to select lines with mixed leading and/or leading override settings, unless maybe you want to set them all to the same value.

Of course, any line can only have one line spacing, whether set to its leading or the largest override of any of its characters.

[uneMule]

@R C-R

C'est vrai. C'est un topic récurrent. Et personnellement j'ai réagi comme beaucoup.
Non, ici, c'est de mettre en évidence le fait que dans la partie caractères, lorsque la totalité du paragraphe est sélectionné, on a une seule information, qui ne correspond pas aux %%% (c'est très visible).
Ne pas avoir d'information (comme dans d'autres applications, et ce n'est pas une injure à Publisher) c'est indiquer qu'il n'y a pas une valeur unique et d'un certain point de vue, c'est une alerte utile.
Et ma suggestion est dans le cas présent " ne pourrait-on pas améliorer le leading override en permettant d'indiquer aux caractères %%% qui ont un corps différents : utilisez l'interlignage de... ". Soit la taille courante du paragraphe, ici 12 pts (donc un interlignage de 14.4 pt en auto) ou soit telle valeur (comme une dérogation) ?
Cela permettrait d'avoir un leading homogène dans le paragraphe lorsqu'on est en auto et qu'on désire utiliser un pourcentage du corps de caractère.
J'espère être clair. Il est tard...

*****

This is true. This is a recurring topic. And personally I reacted like many.
No, here, it's to highlight the fact that in the characters part, when the whole paragraph is selected, you have only one information, which does not correspond to the %%% (it's very visible).
Not having any information (as in other applications, and this is not an insult to Publisher) is an indication that there is not a single value and from a certain point of view it is a useful warning.
And my suggestion in this case is "Couldn't we improve the leading override by allowing to indicate to %%% characters that have a different size: use the line spacing of... ". Either the current size of the paragraph, here 12 pts (so a 14.4 pt line spacing in auto) or such a value (like a derogation)?
This would make it possible to have a homogeneous leading in the paragraph when you are in auto and you want to use a percentage of the character size.
I hope to be clear. It is late...

[walt.farrell]

There have been suggestions that when a string of selected text has multiple values for a panel field, that the panel should have some special "multiple" indicator. That way the panel would not provide misleading information.

[R C-R]

2 hours ago, uneMule said:

And my suggestion in this case is "Couldn't we improve the leading override by allowing to indicate to %%% characters that have a different size:

You can say the same thing about any other text property that is not the same in all of the selected text ... baseline, tracking, h & v scale, etc. could be different character-to-character, & there could be dozens of combinations in one block of selected text.

Even the font and/or font style can be different character-to-character. The apps handle that in a mixed block by blanking out the font and/or style name in the Character panel. So perhaps the least misleading thing for the numeric fields would be to do the same -- the field is blank if the selection includes more than one value?

[uneMule]

@walt.farrell@R C-R

Hello,
And what do you think about a leading override like "median" (with auto) who's offer more flexibility in this sort of case ?
This is not existing owever.

[uneMule]

6 hours ago, R C-R said:

Even the font and/or font style can be different character-to-character. The apps handle that in a mixed block by blanking out the font and/or style name in the Character panel. So perhaps the least misleading thing for the numeric fields would be to do the same -- the field is blank if the selection includes more than one value?

In the second capture, characteres panel, where is the reality?
14.4 pt leading for all?
Not sure.

[walt.farrell]

4 hours ago, uneMule said:

And what do you think about a leading override like "median" (with auto) who's offer more flexibility in this sort of case ?
This is not existing owever.

I'm afraid I don't understand enough about what a setting like that would do to make any comment.

[uneMule]

1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

I'm afraid I don't understand enough about what a setting like that would do to make any comment.

Dans un cas comme celui-ci, qui finalement est assez fréquent, et qu'on travaille avec un interlignage en %, l'interlignage est calculé spécifiquement pour chaque caractère du paragraphe en fonction du corps de ce dernier. Et cela donne le résultat que l'on voit sur la dernière ligne. Souvent la réponse apportée est de passer en interlignage fixe et de dire, pour ce cas, tout en 14.4 pt (120% de 12 pts)(et y compris les %%% en corps 18).
Une suggestion simple et utile serait de pouvoir spécifier un interlignage "médian" ou "défini par l'utilisateur" (qui serait un nouveau choix) et qui permettrait de travailler avec un interligne en % dans paragraphe et de conserver une gestion automatique de l'interlignage tout en évitant ce résultat : des interlignages différents dans le même paragraphe. Cela permettrait aussi de modifier le corps du texte sans revenir sur des cas particuliers.
Ce réglage "médian" pourrait très bien se situer avec le réglage de "auto" dans la fenêtre de caractères (leading override).
(auto) pour chaque caractère et (médian) le même pour tous les caractères (basé soit sur une valeur médiane, soit définie par l'utilisateur).

*****

In a case like this, which is quite frequent, and we work with % leading, the leading is calculated specifically for each character in the paragraph. And this gives the result that we see on the last line.
Often the answer is to switch to fixed leading and say, in this case, everything in 14.4 pt (120% of 12 pts) (and including the %%% in size 18).
A simple and useful suggestion would be to be able to specify a "median" or "user-defined" leading (would be a new choice) and which would make it possible to work with % leading in a paragraph and to keep automatic leading management while avoiding this result: differents leadings in the same paragraph.
This would also allow the body of the text to be modified without going back to particular cases.
This "median" setting could very well be located with the "auto" setting in the characters panel (leading override).
(auto) for each character and (median) the same for all characters (either based on a median value or defined by the user).

[walt.farrell]

Thanks.

You might try that as a Feature Request; it does sound interesting.

 

[uneMule]

1 minute ago, walt.farrell said:

You might try that as a Feature Request; it does sound interesting.

Ha! I thought there was someone who read everything

[walt.farrell]

1 minute ago, uneMule said:

Ha! I thought there was someone who read everything

There may be people who read everything.

The people who are reading to get ideas for product enhancements are only guaranteed to read the Feature Requests. And even then, it works best if each topic asks for one enhancement, and specifies what that enhancement is in the first post. They don't want to have to read deep into a wandering thread to see if some different idea has been expressed

[thomaso]

Maybe you want to nudge that quite related topic, which got noticed, got a ticket, and is partially solved meanwhile (font size/face: blank):

 

[R C-R]

2 hours ago, uneMule said:

In a case like this, which is quite frequent, and we work with % leading, the leading is calculated specifically for each character in the paragraph.

It may be calculated character by character but any one line in a paragraph can have only one leading value, which will be the greater of the paragraph leading or the largest value of leading override applied to any of that line's characters. This follows from the traditional definition of leading as the vertical spacing between lines of text.

2 hours ago, uneMule said:

A simple and useful suggestion would be to be able to specify a "median" or "user-defined" leading (would be a new choice) and which would make it possible to work with % leading in a paragraph and to keep automatic leading management while avoiding this result: differents leadings in the same paragraph.

??? The whole point of leading override is to allow for different leading values (line spacings) for different lines of text in one paragraph. If that is not what you want, it is easy enough to select all the text of the paragraph & set leading override in the Character panel to Auto & set the leading in the Paragraph panel to whatever value you want.

[R C-R]

9 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Maybe you want to nudge that quite related topic...

So which do you think is the better fix, showing nothing when mixed attributes are selected or some text like "mixed" or "---"?

[uneMule]

8 minutes ago, R C-R said:

??? The whole point of leading override is to allow for different leading values (line spacings) for different lines of text in one paragraph. If that is not what you want, it is easy enough to select all the text of the paragraph & set leading override in the Character panel to Auto & set the leading in the Paragraph panel to whatever value you want.

Yes, of course. But the idea is to say "the text in this paragraph is leading as if it were in size 12". And if there are some characters in size 10 or 14, they will be leading as if they were the rest of the paragraph.
Then you define what you want in the paragraph window, 110%..., all the text will follow.But the idea its

*****

Oui bien sûr. Mais l'idée est de dire "le texte de ce paragraphe est interligné comme s'il est en corps 12". Et s'il contient quelques caractères en corps 10 ou 14, il subiront le même interlignage que le reste du paragraphe.
Après vous définissez ce que vous voulez dans la fenêtre paragraphe, 110 %..., tout le texte suivra.

[thomaso]

6 minutes ago, R C-R said:

So which do you think is the better fix, showing nothing when mixed attributes are selected or some text like "mixed" or "---"?

Definitely not text (-> localisation & available space). I don't care if blank or a neutral placeholder like "---", as long it's unambiguous.
What is the current principle of the UI for brackets in value fields in detail? (…) […]

[uneMule]

@thomaso je regarde. Merci.

[R C-R]

5 minutes ago, uneMule said:

And if there are some characters in size 10 or 14, they will be leading as if they were the rest of the paragraph.

I really do not understand what you mean by this. To repeat, each line of text can have only one leading value (because leading is line spacing), so if any character on a line has a leading override value greater than the paragraph default, then the entire line must use that same value.

The leading override can be set to the paragraph default at any time by choosing Auto from the popup menu, so if say you want the entire paragraph to have the same leading throughout with no overrides applied, just make sure your selection includes at least one character in every line of the paragraph & select "Auto" for the leading override. The leading override value will be enclosed in parentheses to indicate it is the automatically applied value, which will continue to be the same as the paragraph leading value even if the latter is changed. (IOW, "Auto" tracks the paragraph leading value.)

This may make more sense if you think of leading override as neither a character nor paragraph property -- it is a line property, I think the only one in the entire interface.

[thomaso]

33 minutes ago, uneMule said:

"the text in this paragraph is leading as if it were in size 12". And if there are some characters in size 10 or 14, they will be leading as if they were the rest of the paragraph. Then you define what you want in the paragraph window, 110%...,

I don't understand what you want. What is the "as if" meant for? (which definitely would cause confusion. Imagine "as if" for other UI instances, e.g. an ellipse "as if" it would be a triangle / a red "as if" it would be yellow / a stroke "as if" it would be a fill, a size "as if" all would be the same …

– What would be different to the way how % leading currently works?

Here I placed lines with different font sizes within 1 single paragraph and typed 60% for the leading – the result is a variable leading throughout the paragraph, adjusted accordingly to the font size of each line. Of cause, 1 line can have only 1 leading. (≠ baseline)

[R C-R]

25 minutes ago, thomaso said:

– What would be different to the way how % leading currently works?

I am not sure if it would be any different but I think it would be useful if the Paragraph Leading field always indicated when % Height leading was in effect.

As it is, if I choose that option from the Leading popup menu, I get a pt or px value surrounded by parentheses, not a percent value. To see the actual percent setting, I have to click in the Leading field. If I click in any other field, it reverts to the px value. I think there is enough room in the field for both....

[uneMule]

@thomaso @R C-R

Bonjour, le commentaire et/ou la suggestion faite ne concerne que la gestion du texte. Et notamment les paragraphes contenant des caractères de corps différents.
Effectivement, si l'interligne est calculé pour chaque caractère, l'interligne de la ligne est défini pour le corps le plus grand. C'est un phénomène très largement expérimenté dans inDesign avec les caractères invisible qui échappent à la sélection et génère ce manque d'homogénéité dans le paragraphe.
Mon objectif n'est pas, non plus, de revenir sur l'utilisation du leading override ou sur des choix inappropriés ou incohérents qui ont/auraient été fait s’agissant de la gestion de l'interlignage. Attribut de caractère ou de paragraphe ? Affinity à fait son choix !
En parcourant le forum, on se rend vite compte que c'est un sujet qui génère des discussions passionnées.

Comme la team Affinity propose des solutions originales, mon propos initial et juste de suggérer une idée pour améliorer la situation présentée (tout en haut de la page).

 

[R C-R]

@uneMule, I have not yet tried translating your last post to English so I am not 100% sure what it covers but in your linked 'setting to improve ...' topic I (once again!) mentioned that leading override is a line, not a character, attribute.

It also remains unclear, at least to me, what your "Median" setting would do when working with paragraph leading as a percent that is not already done with the "Auto" leading override setting. (As the name suggests, "Auto" automatically sets the override to the paragraph leading, whatever it is, effectively disabling the override.)

[thomaso]

@R C-R, I understand @uneMule's UI improvement sketch mainly as critic on the current behavior to display 1 value for more than 1 setting, instead of reporting blank or --- or Auto.

To me this discussion became confusing meanwhile, not only because of jumping between several threads but also because of mixing several, actually separate thoughts: the "wrong" values (bug) versus the desire to position leading in the character panel (feature request).  (I wish leading would be at least in the context toolbar next to size, instead of nearly at the opposite end of the bar)

[R C-R]

26 minutes ago, thomaso said:

@R C-R, I understand @uneMule's UI improvement sketch mainly as critic on the current behavior to display 1 value for more than 1 setting, instead of reporting blank or --- or Auto.

I think there must be more to it than that because @uneMule keeps mentioning a "Median" option for leading override. I am still struggling to understand how that would work or what useful functionality that would add to the Affinity apps.

Then there is what seems to be a misconception about leading override somehow being an attribute that can be applied to only some characters on a line of text without that also forcing the override to apply to the leading of the entire line.

As for the suggestion of putting the Leading attribute in the character panel (which I do not think @uneMule has suggested), I think that would make it much too easy to confuse leading with leading override. Personally, the only change I would like to see, aside from showing one value when more than one applies to a selection, is for the Leading Override field in the Character panel to be moved to a line of its own, sort of like how Leading is on the Paragraph panel, to make it more obvious that it is really a line attribute.