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incompatibility drop cap & small cap [1.8.3.641]


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(I’m finally in the right forum!)

Hello, when a drop cap is followed by one small cap (studio > character > typography > small caps)  or more (recommended use in french), some problems arise with many fonts: vertical shift of the drop cap, number of lines allocated to the drop cap, drop cap size, even when only one line is requested. Thank you (sorry for translation)

Bonjour : quand une lettrine est suivie d'une petite capitale (studio > caractère > typographie > petite capitale) ou plus (usage conseillé en français), des problèmes se posent avec de nombreuses polices : décalage vertical de la lettrine, nombre de lignes allouées à la lettrine, taille de la lettrine, même quand une seule ligne est demandée. Merci

capt pub 01.png

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10 minutes ago, Frisbee said:

I don't understand, I've try some different ways : it's the same problem. In Indesign it works fine in 1 or 2 clics !

Try the attached APub file.

Click into the second paragraph, click the DC paragraph style. The DC paragraph uses the initial words SC small caps character style.

Mike

DC-SC.afpub

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1 hour ago, Frisbee said:

Times New Roman OK, but with another font ? Making a paragraph style don't change anything. Thanks anyway.

Here is the same text, but I changed the font for the DC style to Amster Pro...

Capture_000608.png.ffc06a4fc8ec698d0e32e0ca5e8b0973.png

As long as the font has true small caps, changing the font for the DC style simply updates properly. If the font used doesn't have proper small caps, the the text needs to use small caps from capitals or a faux small caps setting in the SC style.

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You need 2 character styles, one for the drop cap (to keep the font, size and not small caps variant), and another character style for the small caps.

Using paragraph and text styles help formatting and modifying everything in few clicks.

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Why does it work fine in ID with all my fonts and in Pub about 1/30 ? The styles don't change the way the software works, but are just to save time ! I’m sure there’s a problem or my fonts are rotten, but not in ID !

 

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14 minutes ago, Frisbee said:

Why does it work fine in ID with all my fonts and in Pub about 1/30 ? The styles don't change the way the software works, but are just to save time ! I’m sure there’s a problem or my fonts are rotten, but not in ID !

 

I don't use ID, but from what I've seen posted here in the forums it seems that ID makes some assumptions to help simplify things for the user, and Publisher either doesn't make those assumptions or perhaps makes different ones.

For example, it sounds from this thread like ID assumes that you didn't really want the drop-cap to use the small-caps style. Publisher, on the other hand, expects you to separate the styles used for the first character and the rest.

I've also seen posts that indicate that when you have a text style that enables superscripts, and apply it to a full word (or sentence or paragraph) that ID won't automatically make everything into a superscript, but will try to guess what you meant. Publisher, on the other hand, believes what you tell it. And if you don't want all that text superscripted, you shouldn't have assigned that attribute to all of it.

Those differing assumptions or aids for the user will, obviously, cause problems with users trying to transition from ID to Publisher, and especially if they import .idml files which may suddenly act differently.

-- Walt

Desktop:  Windows 11 Home, version 21H2 (22000.613) 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 
Laptop:  Windows 10 Home, version 21H2 (19044.1706) 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
        Affinity Photo 1.10.6 (.1665) and 2.0..3  and 2.0.3.1670 beta/ Affinity Designer 1.10.6 (.1665)  and 2.0.3 and 2.0.3.1670 beta / Affinity Publisher 1.10.6 (.1665)  and 2.0.3 and 2.0.3.1670 beta
iPad Pro M1, 12.9", iPadOS 16.3, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard

      Affinity Photo 1.10.6 and 2.0.3 / Affinity Designer 1.10.6 and 2.0.3 / Affinity Publisher 2.0.3

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23 minutes ago, Frisbee said:

Why does it work fine in ID with all my fonts and in Pub about 1/30 ? The styles don't change the way the software works, but are just to save time ! I’m sure there’s a problem or my fonts are rotten, but not in ID !

Exactly how do you want to use APub for a DC followed by small caps?

Styles do work. Styles do save time. But if you don't want to use them, please describe what it is you want to accomplish and how you are trying.

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1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

For example, it sounds from this thread like ID assumes that you didn't really want the drop-cap to use the small-caps style. Publisher, on the other hand, expects you to separate the styles used for the first character and the rest.

I've also seen posts that indicate that when you have a text style that enables superscripts, and apply it to a full word (or sentence or paragraph) that ID won't automatically make everything into a superscript

No. As expected, ID apply styles where we want them. No guess work or assuming of its part, and that's better this way, humans do enough errors without needing this! :) 

If there are problems with alternate/variant typographical options,  I suspect it's the same as with APub, if characters are missing, they can't be used. Most of the time, people use "fake" character styles, as small caps, all caps, subscripts or superscripts instead of typographical alternatives. That's why most of the time there aren't errors displaying them.

 

1 hour ago, Frisbee said:

Why does it work fine in ID with all my fonts and in Pub about 1/30 ?

I'm not sure what you are doing with ID, but it's similar to APub.

If you add a drop cap manually or without applying a character style to this drop cap, it'll take the font and colour of first character of the paragraph.
This means that if you apply with GREP or inline style a SmallCaps character style to your paragraph, the drop cap will get the same font and colour as your small caps character style.

I'm wondering what happens with the OP document, I can't reproduce it.

[edit] Last part reported as bug, not relevant here [/edit]

 

Edited by Wosven
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19 minutes ago, Wosven said:

If there are problems with alternate/variant typographical options,  I suspect it's the same as with APub, if characters are missing, they can't be used. Most of the time, people use "fake" character styles, as small caps, all caps, subscripts or superscripts instead of typographical alternatives. That's why most of the time there aren't errors displaying them.

One user showed an example of (I think) an imported .idml file where a sentence had a text style with the typographic superscript option enabled, and everything looked fine in ID. For example, superscripts occurred only at the ends of words, for example, Mr with a superscript "r". But in Publisher, there were superscripted "r" characters in the middle of some words, as well as at the end as in ID.

As I can't experiment with ID, I can only draw conclusions from what others have posted here. Which means that something else may have been going on, but for now my conclusion seems reasonable to me :)

-- Walt

Desktop:  Windows 11 Home, version 21H2 (22000.613) 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 
Laptop:  Windows 10 Home, version 21H2 (19044.1706) 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
        Affinity Photo 1.10.6 (.1665) and 2.0..3  and 2.0.3.1670 beta/ Affinity Designer 1.10.6 (.1665)  and 2.0.3 and 2.0.3.1670 beta / Affinity Publisher 1.10.6 (.1665)  and 2.0.3 and 2.0.3.1670 beta
iPad Pro M1, 12.9", iPadOS 16.3, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard

      Affinity Photo 1.10.6 and 2.0.3 / Affinity Designer 1.10.6 and 2.0.3 / Affinity Publisher 2.0.3

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40 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

superscripts occurred only at the ends of words, for example, Mr with a superscript "r"

Does it works depending of the font (internally coded, certainly not available to each language), or do ID use an elaborate dictionary to apply them when needed? There's an option about typography script depending of languages in the character panel (language). I'm wondering what it is… And if it come from or with more elaborate dictionaries than the ones we use.

If it's only applying automatically supercript to "st" in 1st and other English specificities, that's not usefull. It seems, looking at the glyphe panel, that not all characters have a superscript variant in a lot of fonts.

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1 hour ago, Wosven said:

Does it works depending of the font (internally coded, certainly not available to each language), or do ID use an elaborate dictionary to apply them when needed? There's an option about typography script depending of languages in the character panel (language). I'm wondering what it is… And if it come from or with more elaborate dictionaries than the ones we use.

If it's only applying automatically supercript to "st" in 1st and other English specificities, that's not usefull. It seems, looking at the glyphe panel, that not all characters have a superscript variant in a lot of fonts.

I have no idea. It was reported in one topic here in the forums, and that is all I know about it. (Not sure I could find that topic again, though I should be able to as I posted in it, I think.)

-- Walt

Desktop:  Windows 11 Home, version 21H2 (22000.613) 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 
Laptop:  Windows 10 Home, version 21H2 (19044.1706) 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
        Affinity Photo 1.10.6 (.1665) and 2.0..3  and 2.0.3.1670 beta/ Affinity Designer 1.10.6 (.1665)  and 2.0.3 and 2.0.3.1670 beta / Affinity Publisher 1.10.6 (.1665)  and 2.0.3 and 2.0.3.1670 beta
iPad Pro M1, 12.9", iPadOS 16.3, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard

      Affinity Photo 1.10.6 and 2.0.3 / Affinity Designer 1.10.6 and 2.0.3 / Affinity Publisher 2.0.3

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And now, two sceenshots :

1 - comparison Apub-ID (3 lines drop cap + small caps)

2 - changes in the 4 red fonts (4 lines (to get 3 ones) drop cap + small caps), drop caps have a small vertical shift up (and a size a bit small ?) except Tahoma, that can be corrected (character>positioning and transform) but it's a DIY that the user does not have to perform.

capt Pub & ID_a.png

capt Pub & ID_b.png

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It’s easy to blame fonts that work well (I already said) with other software. In French, a saying says "qui aime bien, châtie bien" ; to criticize a product is to want to make it grow and move it forward by finding solutions to problems. Veiling the face does not help. Apub is almost perfect, let’s make it together more than perfect !

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1 hour ago, Frisbee said:

It’s easy to blame fonts that work well (I already said) with other software. In French, a saying says "qui aime bien, châtie bien" ; to criticize a product is to want to make it grow and move it forward by finding solutions to problems. Veiling the face does not help. Apub is almost perfect, let’s make it together more than perfect !

Yes, APub needs to fake DCs, etc., better. There should be a setup like other applications that one can set scale amounts (for this and super/subscript too).

The reason for the statement concerning the OS version of Baskerville, at least the one I have with Windows 10 (and had for several OS versions) is that this particular font (from 1993 if I recall) has its internal metrics all messed up. This isn't the cause of Affinity Publisher messing it up when a DC is followed by faked small caps--that is very much the fault of APub.

In other words, I'm not blaming the font for how APub is causing this fault.

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