Scale with Object ticked as default (stroke)

[iconmuse]

In terms of workflow - do you mostly use scale with object, or mostly have this switched off?

Because for me, when drawing anything, I always need scale with object on. I hardly ever switch it off. I want objects to appear the same as designed no matter how large or small they are - so it seems counter-intuitive to have this switched off by default, surely switched on would be better for all users. But I want to know, how do other people work generally, is there a consensus?

[GarryP]

For some idea of the range of opinions, see:

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/193505-request-setting-scale-with-object-centrally-in-preferences-once-and-for-all-for-fx-and-stroke/

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/119638-scale-with-object-on-by-default/

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/185047-stroke-scale-with-object/

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/181535-shouldnt-scale-with-object-be-the-default-setting/

etc. etc.

I very much doubt that there will be any kind of “consensus” but the general feeling seems to be: “Please give us the option to set it how we want it to be by default and we’ll be mostly happy.”

Having it switched OFF by default isn’t good for some; having it switched ON by default isn’t good for some.
Defaults are rarely good for “all users” all of the time.

[Old Bruce]

Why not change the Defaults to work with Scale with Object being ticked on then go to Edit > Defaults > Synchronize from Selection and then Edit > Defaults > Save to have it turned on for those tools.

[R C-R]

4 hours ago, Old Bruce said:

Why not change the Defaults to work with Scale with Object being ticked on then go to Edit > Defaults > Synchronize from Selection and then Edit > Defaults > Save to have it turned on for those tools.

Assuming that works for the scale property wouldn't that save other properties as defaults as well, like stroke color & width?

[thomaso]

3 hours ago, R C-R said:

Assuming that works for the scale property wouldn't that save other properties as defaults as well, like stroke color & width?

It is independent of this option whether a stroke or none gets saved as defaults. You can activate this option without having a stroke activated (no stroke Ø) and save as defaults. You even can do this without having an object created / selected, then the step "Synchronize" wouldn't be available but "Save" appears to work and affect according object types (e.g. shape tool, pen tool). Note, certain object types have defaults of their own, for instance text objects, and thus they require to get saved separately if their stroke option should get activated, too. – You can play/experiment with it for more details.

[R C-R]

3 minutes ago, thomaso said:

You can activate this option without having a stroke activated (no stroke Ø) and save as defaults.

But won't that make 'no stroke' the new default for shape objects?

[thomaso]

Just now, R C-R said:

But won't that make 'no stroke' the new default for shape objects?

It's up to you. It depends on your current defaults whether 'no stroke' will be a new one.

Saving defaults has the purpose to save … it will save what you save … defaults and their various properties are saved anyway, initially delivered and installed as "factory" defaults … you can't have "no defaults" as you can't have no font as "No Style" … not every property can be saved as a default and not every possible default property needs to be enabled as a default / when you save defaults.

There is no need to ask the forum for single possible properties of defaults. Select an existing or create a new object -> press "Revert Defaults" -> see what it got saved. You can play/experiment with it for more details.

[R C-R]

3 hours ago, thomaso said:

Saving defaults has the purpose to save … it will save what you save … defaults and their various properties are saved anyway...

Yes, I understand how the defaults work. My point is I do not think you can save just one property as a default, so you can't save "scale with object" without also saving the various stroke & other object properties along with it.

[thomaso]

6 hours ago, R C-R said:

My point is I do not think you can save just one property as a default, so you can't save "scale with object" without also saving the various stroke & other object properties along with it.

A rather pointless concern: Again: all savable parameters are saved anyway, you can't un-save them and you can't exclude a parameter from being saved anyway. The set of parameters in the Defaults is fixed "by design" and can't get modified by users.

Accordingly, if you change only one "Defaults" property then, effectively, only this property gets saved. Because the others were saved already you don't notice / can't proof or tell whether the other, unchanged parameters get saved one more time or not. And it does not matter. Thus your point is pointless.

Compare: If you alter just 1 object in a saved Affinity document + save the document again, then it is pointless to consider whether only this 1 object gets saved with "Save" or whether all objects in your document get saved one more time. Effectively the unchanged objects were saved before and are saved after the change of the 1 object. – It is different if you choose "Save As…" with a new file name, then you get obviously an entirely new, separate file – but this option does not exist for these "Defaults" as you can have only 1 set of Defaults saved at a time. (You might think now, "but there are '.autosave' files for documents" or "but outside Affinity I can copy preference / system files + rename them + thus have several saved", … for this thread pointless, too.)

Another comparison are text styles: If you have a style "MyStyle" and alter one parameter, e.g. size from 12 to 20 pt, then the tiny text field in the panel says "MyStyle + Font size: 20pt" (while the 'Edit Text Style' dialog lists all parameters of this style, those set to "[No change]" excepted). If you then save "MyStyle" again it doesn't matter (is pointless) to debate whether only "size: 20 pt" will get saved or all style properties get saved one more time. – Here the difference to "Defaults" is that you can save text style parameters with the value "[No change]" and thus, effectively, you can create & save a style that only sets the size of a text to 20 pt while leaving all other style properties of a text unchanged – but, as mentioned, a "no change" option is not available for these "Defaults", while, effectively, no change is possible, for instance if you just activate the "Scale with object" attribute and save the Defaults.

[R C-R]

@thomaso, I am simply trying to point out to the OP that Scale with Object cannot be set as a default property independently of the other defaults. That is what I think the OP was hoping to be able to do.

[thomaso]

This is not "simply pointing out" but useless complicate and confusing misleading. – Of course the OP can save this option independently of all other currently saved default properties. As mentioned in my initial post already, it is sufficient to activate this option + choose "Save".

Note, independently saving does not mean to save a single property as a single Default of its own – as we can not recall/reassign a single "Defaults" property without recalling all its related other attributes. Accordingly, you can change + save the default font size independently of all other default text attributes.

[R C-R]

4 hours ago, thomaso said:

Of course the OP can save this option independently of all other currently saved default properties.
[...]
Note, independently saving does not mean to save a single property as a single Default of its own – as we can not recall/reassign a single "Defaults" property without recalling all its related other attributes.

??? In US English Independently means in a way that is not connected with another; IOW, alone, by itself, autonomously, etc.

So I have no idea what you are trying to say when you say it can be saved independently of all other properties.

[thomaso]

6 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Independently means in a way that is not connected

So I have no idea what you are trying to say when you say it can be saved independently of all other properties.

You can save this property entirely independently of other properties of the Defaults: Regardless of activating or deactivating this option, your choice is NOT CONNECTED to other properties, before or after saving its setting with the Defaults. This option works independently of other object properties and it does not lose its attribute of independence if you save it as Defaults.

Opposite to the independence of this option it influences a possible stroke width when its object gets scaled, thus a stroke width is not independent of this option whereas this option is independent from the stroke as it is from any other object property, regardless of its setting (on/off) when Defaults get saved.

If you change this option only and choose save then only this option will be changed in a new object that you create after saving, while all other object properties will be the same. Thus this property was saved "alone, by itself, autonomously" … while it was mentioned already that this is not identical / must not confused with a separate Defaults for single properties: All properties of an object get saved together in only one "Defaults".

[R C-R]

6 minutes ago, thomaso said:

All properties of an object get saved together in only one "Defaults".

Which literally means you cannot save Scale with Object independently of any other defaults because as you say all Defaults are saved together; that is, not independently of one another, alone, or autonomously.

I am not sure what you think independently means in English, but in this context I just meant it is not unconnected to the other default properties; thus, not alone, by itself, etc.

Anyway, I'm done with this. I know what I meant & now I hope you do too.

[thomaso]

47 minutes ago, R C-R said:

you cannot save Scale with Object independently of any other defaults

Of cause you can. 

Simple recipe: Change only this property in the interface + choose Defaults > Save. This results in Defaults that have only this single property changed – completely independent of all other properties.

[R C-R]

15 minutes ago, thomaso said:

This results in Defaults that have only this single property changed – completely independent of all other properties.

The change is independent but it is still dependent on there being only one set of Defaults properties that can be saved -- IOW, no one property can be saved alone, on its own, independently of the Defaults function.

Among its other definitions "independently" means "in a way that is not connected with another." Thus, the one possible saved set of Default properties are in actual fact connected to one another in this way; therefore, by definition not independent.

[thomaso]

9 minutes ago, R C-R said:

"independently" means "in a way that is not connected with another."

Apart from the trivial idea that 'everything is connected with everything':

The various properties in the "Defaults" are similar to items in a Group independent of each other and not connected among each other … while each of them is depending on their common parent. – So, “connected” and “dependent” have different meanings, although they have common aspects that can make them synonymous.

[R C-R]

29 minutes ago, thomaso said:

The various properties in the "Defaults" are similar to items in a Group independent of each other and not connected among each other … while each of them is depending on their common parent.

Items in a group are independent of one another because they can be moved out of their group container layer to be come standalone document layers, deleted or cut from the group, or copied & pasted into a brand new or existing document.

Can you do any of those things with the Scale with Object property? If not, that property, like the others saved as defaults, are not in this sense independent of one another.

[R C-R]

To be as clear as I can be about this, it is just a guess but I think the OP may be asking if there is (or should be) a global app setting to have Scale with Object always enabled unless manually disabled, independently of any other settings, much like setting General prefs to always reopen documents on startup, save thumbnails with documents, & so on.

I freely admit this guess may be way off the mark. I just think it is something worth considering unless/until we hear more from the OP about it.

[iconmuse]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:52 PM, R C-R said:

To be as clear as I can be about this, it is just a guess but I think the OP may be asking if there is (or should be) a global app setting to have Scale with Object always enabled unless manually disabled, independently of any other settings, much like setting General prefs to always reopen documents on startup, save thumbnails with documents, & so on.

I freely admit this guess may be way off the mark. I just think it is something worth considering unless/until we hear more from the OP about it.

This is what I mean. So that every object created has scale with object enabled unless manually disabled in the individual object not connected to other objects created later. I just want to know whether its just me that finds it slow and cumbersome to have to tick this box on every item created - I don't want to assume that everyone works the same way I do, or perhaps there is an easier way I'm unaware of.

[thomaso]

27 minutes ago, iconmuse said:

slow and cumbersome to have to tick this box on every item created

As mentioned, as workaround for a missing common / additional UI option, you can activate the existing "Scale with object" option in the Stroke panel + save this setting in your custom Defaults to get it enabled for objects you create in future.