Don't know which color model is used in Affinity

[thomaso]

16 hours ago, Lagarto said:

16 hours ago, thomaso said:

To me APub lacks in an option to define how placed or pasted (not: opened) content gets handled.

Yep, nothing like this:

...and no choice to drop a CMYK profile of a placed document (which would be very important), and whatever is specified in Preferences, is not allowed to be overridden at open/import/paste time.

Yes, and Affinity also lacks in a preference setting for either the document or the app, like this:

Furthermore I wonder if Affinity behaves according to the PDF specifications on PDF/X-4 export: if you choose a specific output profile (e.g. delivered by the print provider) which differs from the document profile then the resulting PDF seems has K-only converted to 4c. As workaround you would need to set your document profile to the output profile (=output intent), which of course may result in manipulated color definitions within the document – and would also be disturbed (incompatible) by profiles in placed resources.

1. ) PDF/X-4 with document .icc profile: K-only text is k-only / overprint works:

2. ) PDF/X-4 with custom .icc profile: K-only text is converted to 4c:

 

[thomaso]

14 hours ago, Lagarto said:

What probably confuses most is using the term "RGB" or "CMYK" mode as if

In such a situation it is not possible to identify 1 specific culprit since all involved items influence each other. Compare the difficulty you pointed out above when talking about "true" values, which one understands as the values of a resource or Affinity object in their initial document (before  place / paste), another as the values in the current document (after  place / paste).

As long Serif doesn't make clear how they understand certain terms, we users can guess only + run into endless conflicts / contradictions, including contradictional arguments when reporting / discussing in the lack of unambigous terms + required workflow options. According to the application specification on their website it seems Serif even isn't aware … or simply ignores "by design" this conflicting situations. For instance…

"Full color control" … "advanced control over professional color requirements" … "End-to-End CMYK":

"True" … "Seamlessly jump between color mode" … "prevent color mode switching"

In particular the feature "ICC color management profiles supported" isn't specified (and also avoids unspecific adjectives like "true", "full", "professional" or "seemlessly"). "Supported" can mean a lot and includes unwanted, erroneous support, too. The reader can't recognize what Serif understands under "supported" … maybe Serif doesn't know exactly themself?

 

[Galvez]

1 hour ago, Lagarto said:

Sí, otra área en la que la multiplicación no funcionaría son los colores directos, no solo porque la naturaleza de las tintas planas es diferente de las tintas de proceso (y tener tintas planas idénticas superpuestas no tiene sentido y no oscurecería la salida como lo hace en la pantalla) - pero también porque en las aplicaciones de Affinity, la aplicación del modo de fusión múltiple en un color directo convertiría estos colores a CMYK (debajo del único color de proceso en el trabajo es el rectángulo Y100 debajo de los rectángulos grises cálidos de PMS); Atributos de sobreimpresión del lado izquierdo, lado derecho multiplicado:

I have used the multiplication in technical inks (marking dies, creases, varnishing, etc.) and they have given me a good result.

Although I have seen spot colors that can be marked as overprinted.

And overprinting is not only used so that the ink is "added", sometimes the design is made for opaque inks, and to avoid unnecessary adjustments, it is possible to mark that a yellow or a white overprints on a black, for example in screen printing .

I have it pretty much under control but I'm still researching it, although I think the developers will improve it in the future.

Spoiler

 

Yo la multiplicación la he usado en tintas técnicas (marcar troqueles, hendidos, barnizados, etc) y me han dado un buen resultado.

Aunque los colores directos sí he visto que se pueden marcar como sobreimpresos.

Y la sobreimpresión no solamente se usa para que la tinta se "sumen", a veces el diseño se hace para tintas opacas, y para evitar ajustes inecesarios, se puede marcar que un amarillo o un blanco sobreimpriman sobre un negro como en serigrafía.

Lo tengo bastante controlado pero todavía lo estoy investigando, aunque creo que los desarrolladores lo mejorarán en el futuro.

 

 

[Galvez]

2 hours ago, thomaso said:

Sí, esa puede ser una solución alternativa para mantener los valores, pero no parece una solución útil:

Empiezo un. afpub en un determinado perfil CMYK, luego recibo varios recursos del cliente para usarlos en el diseño. Actualmente, el flujo de trabajo requiere abrir los recursos + cambiar su perfil de color al de su documento - o, alternativamente, ajustar todas las definiciones de color desviadas (valores de muestra) después de colocar los recursos con sus perfiles iniciales.

Luego, en el siguiente nivel, se toma la decisión del proveedor de impresión y recibo un perfil específico de la impresora.

Si exporto como PDF / X-4 y modifico el perfil de "(como documento)" a otro perfil, el título preestablecido (PDF / X-4) se atenúa y el PDF resultante no es correcto, por ejemplo, genera solo K como 4c. -> Así que necesito configurar el perfil de la impresora como mi. perfil afpub antes de la exportación. De esa manera, podría perder ciertos valores de color establecidos por segunda vez y necesitar ajustarlos nuevamente, como en el nivel anterior.

 

This is so and special care is needed to keep the colors consistent. I am sure that in future reviews you will take these details into account in this magnificent software that I have become addicted to. 😀

[thomaso]

27 minutes ago, BofG said:

A really good addition would be a "printing black" swatch that would be kept out of conversion so to remain 100k. Currently I bodge it by using a 100k spot colour.

• Though a 100 K swatch does exist in the UI (added in a previous app update) & there is an export option to maintain black text as 100 K it doesn't prevent a conversion of  100 K to 4c in a PDF/X-4 if the export profile isn't identical with the document's profile.

• A spot swatch might result in an unwanted additional channel on export. While a custom not-spot but overprinting 100 K swatch doesn't prevent the issue from happening, as recently discussed in this topic:

 

[lacerto]

(..)

[thomaso]

27 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

Colorwise the biggest problems in Affinity apps are inability to discard embedded CMYK profiles (and assign them the document color profile so that color values are passed through, e.g. when importing AI files), only partial support for EPS files (e.g. spot colors and overprint settings are not supported), problems with grayscale and monochrome files, problems with PDF passthrough, and poor default print PDF export settings (there are similar problems with RGB based PDF production). These problems cause much confusion and inadvertent color conversions.  

Compact summary. +1

> Where can this swatch be found/added?   Maybe you misunderstood me, I guess you have used the 4 default swatches already. Affinity-like this black & gray (50%) are defined as K-only exclusively in documents set to CMYK space and they don't fully avoid the mentioned auto-conversion problem and don't behave like 100 (50) K spot colors.

[lacerto]

(..)

[thomaso]

4 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

The K100 swatch you mention is just a shortcut but does not provide protection against K to four color. conversions. 

That's true, so I was misunderstanding you all 3, sorry. – However, I would not request Affinity to implement an additionally, non-convertible default Black but to fix the behavior of this existing swatch (which is already 'locked' (~global) in the way that you can't alter its definition e.g. into any preferred global color).

[lacerto]

(..)

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, Lagarto said:

Why not,

I just can't image a need or use case for the currently existing global black swatch if a conversion-protected k-only black would exist (which would get converted for RGB output I guess).

1 hour ago, Lagarto said:

so that the user can easily create child swatches based. on it

Tint's as child swatches are a separate, complex subject – regardless of this black and the Affinity requirement for global colors to be in document palettes.

Currently it is not possible to create tints of a global swatch as children of this swatch (= linked to their mother swatch). It's even worse, the offered options to create tint swatches from a selected global swatch …
… report for a selected tint swatch an ambigous color space/mode (swatches panel vs. colour panel).
… don't display after creation a correct value when you switch from tint to CMYK slider view (with no way or workaround to get its 4c values displayed).
… create, via menu command, a set of tints of a CMYK swatch in RGB definition.
These three app / UI behaviors are quite odd and feel like "mad by design".

[lacerto]

(...)

[sbe]

Please Serif, take Indesign as an example. Why not simply adapt a concept that works well and most users are used to? You don't have to do everything differently if it has proven itself over the years. Put your magic to do something different into other features we love, but make the color handling work as robust and simple like in Indesign