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Redsandro

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Posts posted by Redsandro


  1. For me this is not working. Half of the winetricks command end/freeze with an empty window open (but work fine with the default installed wine).

    However since it's working for you, I'm optimistic this will work itself out!

     

    On 7/28/2019 at 1:09 PM, toluschr said:

    I tried to run Affinity previously, but only got to the point of "VK_CHILD_WINDOW_RENDERING" not being implemented and after not using Affinity Photo for a long time to stay with Linux I got the following message on Discord:

    image.thumb.png.54e95c55fadd09b30cd8568d0af1e4d4.png

     

    Where can we track when this patch is being merged to mainline? I prefer to (wait for and) install a package version from the beta repository, so not to mess with the ability to run my existing wine apps.


  2. 43 minutes ago, Silas said:

    I am begging Serif to come with me, and I can't be alone.

    A lot of people have similar stories to yours. And while we (Linux crowd) understand the palette of reasons and benefits, from an outside perspective it still sounds like a choice you could have not made, i.e. complaining. The old comment by Patrick illustrates this well:

    On 3/1/2017 at 12:53 PM, Patrick Connor said:

    This discussion is a bit like this. "I used to live in France, but I decided I liked the look of Germany, it suits me better in so many ways. Disney have built a Disneyland in Paris, France, and although there are some fairly good parks in Germany there is nothing like a Disneyworld Germany at the moment. Please build one. I would pay the entrance fee and so would my friends."

    This is of course a charged statement because Affinity makes tools that you use monthly, weekly, or sometimes daily. Disneyworld is something you'd visit between zero and one times. So a better comparison would be to move to a different city that has no fast food companies, and asking if McDonalds, KFC, Subway or Chipotle to open shop in your city. But the statement does show what it sounds like when you ask for Serif on Linux after stating that you're moving away from Apple.

    I think (happy) Windows/MacOS users don't appreciate the 'sacrifice' (i.e. comfy availability of commercial software) you've made, because they don't understand the accumulation of things that make it worth it.

    Even then, if you're switching to Linux full-time it probably means that you have grown accustomed to it for the past 5+ years, and have gotten acquainted with the general community mindset of getting everything to run on everything. This is in stark contrast with - generalizing from the loudest comments here - Windows (and especially) MacOS users, that seem to appreciate exclusivity while they are a part of it.

    I guess the move from MacOS to Windows already incurred a loss of exclusivity and some angered responses over that were heard at the time too. The MacOS "creatives" had already suffered a dilution of their community with Windows "mainstreamers". And now they should welcome the Linux "zealots"? Hell no. Linux is the opposite of exclusivity, because everyone can install it on everything, for free. That can't be good or sustainable. It will infect everything it touches and turn it into the same ugly GTK+ muck we know Linux to be. (This paragraph is a dramatization from the perspective of a Linuxphobe.)

    What I'm trying to say is that you, and the many before you, need a different story that appeals to the target audience (not the choir) more. I'm not sure it's possible though.


  3. @Mark Ingram I do believe the farther you distance yourself from Windows, the higher the percentage of creative people is. 

    If one in a thousand Windows users is creative, and one in two hundred OSX users is creative, it would mean that your Windows and OSX sales are approximately the same.

    One in 20 Linux users would need to be creative to have an equal sales share, and that's not going to happen.

     


  4. Hi @Noel Schenk,

    They did not make any promise, but even if they did, it would cost a lot more than that.

    As TonyB said on July 13, 2014:

    Quote

    It would cost in excess of £1,000,000 to develop and maintain the Affinity range of applications on Linux. As soon as we are confident we could recoup the cost then we would consider it.

    That was in 2014 though. Five years later, they've emphasized their disinterest for a Linux version on multiple occasions.

    On 6/11/2019 at 8:41 AM, Mark Ingram said:

    Now, that was in 2014, and as the products have grown (and new products like iPad and Publisher have arrived), that cost will have risen, unfortunately.

    (...) our limited resources are best spent working on other things right now.

     

    A lot of Linux users (myself included) have indicated they would pay double the Affinity license fee for native Linux versions, as an incentive for them to port them. Affinity is probably honored, but it's frankly still not worth their while. I don't think we should beg a commercial party to develop for Linux if they don't want to any further. Everyone should be happy about it, and good lock to both parties otherwise. It's better for us (Linux users) to raise bounties on FOSS software for features you are missing and/or donate it to FOSS projects: Donate to GIMP, donate to Kritadonate to InkScape or donate to the Libre Graphics Meeting.


  5. Hi @Argo,

    The Affinity team has already debated this internally and is not currently interested in the uncertain Linux market.

    On 10/15/2016 at 8:34 AM, Patrick Connor said:

    There are no plans for a Linux port. We are a small team and will be doing new (..) products (..) in preference to porting the existing ones to Linux.

     

    On 11/9/2018 at 2:26 PM, GabrielM said:

    We have no plans to develop a version for Linux and do not have a workaround for [WINE]. Sorry :(

     

    On 6/11/2019 at 8:41 AM, Mark Ingram said:

    This thread is popular, but ultimately we've only had a fraction of a percent of people request a Linux version so far. Now, if this post had 20,000 people in it, we'd be clamouring to build for Linux. We're not saying never, we're just saying that our limited resources are best spent working on other things right now.

    A lot of Linux users (myself included) have indicated they would pay double the Affinity license fee for native Linux versions, as an incentive for them to port them. I suggest we all use half of that money and donate it to people who'd receive it with open arms: Donate to GIMP, donate to Kritadonate to InkScape or donate to the Libre Graphics Meeting.


  6. 1 hour ago, Juhele said:

    Does anybody here use Designer in VM running Windows 7? I know there will probably be some loss of performance but have no idea if it is still usable.

    In my experience there is too much performance loss in a classic VM with shared hardware. Really bad framerate. Don't do it. Don't take my word for it; try it out with the Designer Trial version first.

    What is reported to work pretty good is a VM using a dedicated video card (and plenty of RAM) for Affinity using VFIO. The video card will be more costly than a Windows license, and it takes some time to set up, but you'll definitely save a lot of time not being handicapped without access to your computer as would happen when dual-booting.

    @Qu4ntumSpin suggested something like https://looking-glass.hostfission.com/ to tie it all together.

     

    2 hours ago, Solly said:

    Oh my, things haven't changed much since my Usenet news use in the mid-1980's. The same words of wisdom apply—don't feed the trolls. ;)

    @xam @D’T4ils this topic really becomes quite interesting when you add half a dozen people or so to the ignore list.

     

    2 hours ago, xam said:

    As I see it there are two ways to move forward with this.

    1. Affinity starts work on provisional (prospect) linux version transparently and gets the community involved. Why not talk to canonical. They would definitely have an interest in supporting serif.

    2. Start a project separate from serif with donations to start work on supporting the wine version, or indeed wrapping the windows version with a snap app to give users ease of use.  donation money == good developer resources.

    Serif is not going to do this (1). I prefer backing a team that does want to work towards a Linux version. There are however no real quality contenders besides Adobe and Serif, right?

    So (2) is an option if we can get someone to map everything necessary without any support from Serif whatsoever, but perhaps 3 would be better:

    3. Can we create a script to hot-switch VFIO between Linux and Affinity-VM using only one videocard? Though unrelated, this seems to attempt exactly this.


  7. 4 hours ago, Mark Ingram said:

    The second post on this thread from @TonyB said:

    On 8/16/2014 at 9:29 PM, TonyB said:

    We would only make a Linux version if we were confident we would recoup the $500,000 it would cost us to build it.

    Now, that was in 2014, and as the products have grown (and new products like iPad and Publisher have arrived), that cost will have risen, unfortunately.

    This thread is popular, but ultimately we've only had a fraction of a percent of people request a Linux version so far. Now, if this post had 20,000 people in it, we'd be clamouring to build for Linux...

    We're not saying never, we're just saying that our limited resources are best spent working on other things right now.

    And I say all that as a Linux fan.

    Thank you @Mark Ingram. This brings some clarity, although I had to look up the word clamour.

    The team is not really interested in doing this right now, and you're happy with the spoils of the current markets. There's generally no interest in a crowd source either, because the team is not confident that the spoils of the Linux market would remain interesting after a theoretical crowdfund. The proverbial banana would be 20.000 people showing up here suggesting that Affinity for Linux would be a lovely idea.

    TL;DR: Not now, maybe later.


  8. 3 hours ago, SrPx said:

    Really, I did not cherry pick anything.

    I simply mean that (a) Patrick quotes (I mean links to posts) are less relevant to me as I stated before because of their prevalence in prepossessed under- or overtone, yet you almost exclusively pick (link to) them, 82% of the time to be precise. I'm looking for objective initial statements, which I have all quoted in the second half of my previous post for everyone's benefit.

    And (b), when trying to summarize what is important, you pick (link to) almost exclusively meta-discussion - which is what I meant by saying you seem to focus more on a different aspect of this discussion than I, quotes (links) 1 through 4, 6, 10, 12, and 14 through 18 to be precise - rather than original statements summarizing what this is about, which (building on your idea to do so) is what I have done in the second half of my previous post for everyone's benefit.

    Next, quote (link) 5, 7, 13 and 22 are "Sorry, but we currently have no plans to release on Linux".

    See, while you have done a considerable effort - I know because I have done the same right after that post - for which I have thanked you (yesterday) which has been credited to your "total reputation", substantially there's not much left, and it really doesn't add a lot to respond to them, but if it makes you feel any better, I will address them here:

    Quote (link) 19: "We have little appetite for a Kickstarter at his time." I know. I knew all the way back in my first post. Notice how this statement leaves room for working up an appetite.

    Quote (link) 11: "How can we [market and have a single point of sale] on every supported Linux machine?" Asked and answered.

    Quote (link) 9: Apparently now the amount of money that can be raised is irrelevant. This is a unique statement contradicting everything staff said before. You can't take this statement seriously, as I jokingly illustrated in my previous post.

    Quote (link) 20: "It's not all about the money. We are not saying never we are saying not now." I think this (2018) is literally the first time "not now" is said, rather than "not likeley, not confident"

    I'm saving quote 8 for below.

    3 hours ago, SrPx said:

    I sense you have also been at quite some companies (I've been in ten, but in a few I was quite some years).

    Six here

    3 hours ago, SrPx said:

    Why direct insults to the company is not antipathy as well?

    Why do you keep bringing this up? It's not interesting. We can both point to rude behavior from select users. If you're justifying being rude to everyone, including new people, because some people are rude, than I don't think you had anything to do with PR communication or social media in your 10 companies. Also, whataboutism. Those yelling freeloaders will be forgotten, but Serifs missteps will be remembered. That's just how it works when you've built up a name. It would make sense to release an enthusiastic and friendly statement on the matter, and link to that every single time, rather than being lured into the occasional trap. This was literally my point when I posted here earlier this week for the first time again, and I can't believe no one agrees that this might be a good idea, and attacks me on everything else except my main point.

    3 hours ago, SrPx said:

    I don't think so. I believe is more a case that they just truly hate censorship, and also, are a bit pessimistic about the matter

    This is not what I meant with "they don't want the discussion to close". Apart from one single quote in the entire existence of this forum, they never definitively said they were "not going to" (so leave it alone). They used words like "not very keen" (so convince me otherwise). If they wanted the discussion to close without implying censorship, they would very simply release a statement and keep linking to that, rather than engage in discussion as if things are up for debate.

    Quote

    You seem to dislike a lot or all around here... yet you are posting here since at least 2016 ...Why ? I'd have for sure moved on long ago if I did hate so much the situation....

    First, there are a lot of arguments against a theoretical Linux version that just don't make sense. If the only reason you don't drive me to work is because you don't want to get wet, then I want to try to make you understand that a car is not filled with water.

    Second, I post in bursts of about 10 posts. with 58 posts, I'm here a couple of days less than twice per year to check out progress on this. I usually start with a nice post, and I get attacked for everything except the main I was saying. Eventually I lose the slowly regained trust because of some angry defensive intolerant users in this community. No, not "because people don't agree with me". I'm in a lot of communities and a lot of people enthusiastically and patiently disagree with each other and get back on point. This must be one of the most bitter communities I know. And although that's probably only towards Linux enthusiasts, being a (non-dual-booting) Linux user myself, in my perception this is it.

    Also, I have a 2:1 post to thanks ratio. Half the things I may just make sense.

    Quote

    "We don't have any plans at all to make a linux version" and "this is a private company, not a democracy". That seems plain English to me, and couldn't get more direct.

    This is not addressing anything, that's a knockdown argument.

    Quote

    Have they stated that they have changed their -many times- fixed position in the matter ? Nope, they haven't. Not in a single one case. Where is the doubt ?

    facepalm.jpg

    I know I still owe you quote (link) 8 but I just lost my will to live. We're so much at cross purposes, we're having two different conversations. This is a waste of both our time and energy. We've spend 8 Serif licenses worth of time trying to talk to each other, and it falls on deaf ears like a brick in the water. Let's voluntarily ignore each other, and keep conversing with the people that we do have a constructive rapport with.


  9. On 4/14/2019 at 6:05 PM, foxie said:

    The problem is not in wine actually, but https://github.com/doitsujin/dxvk/issues/785

    Quote

    Affinity Designer rely heavily on D3D10 Effects which are not currently implemented [in DXVK]

     

    Perhaps this is relevant?

    Quote

    DXVK is now expanding to support Direct3D 10 over Vulkan in Wine. [T]he Effects API is not currently supported. To use it, you will need the `d3dcompiler_43.dll`, which can be grabbed by using `winetricks`.

    Source: gamingonlinux.com

    Quote

    Winetricks installs version 43 only, so you need to find other versions of d3dcompiler somewhere, place them to system32 (64-bit versions) and syswow64 (32-bit versions) and override them in winecfg.

    Source: github.com/doitsujin/dxvk

     


  10. 56 minutes ago, Requester said:

    Ask the wine community ... do a crowdfunding for WINE (developers) to make the affinity products run on linux!

    In 2014 the answer was no, but the main concern might not be relevant anymore. The second concern, which is clear (from trying to run it) is still there. Some calls are not mapped (properly) so it would be interesting to know:

    1. what component(s) in their framework causes this;
    2. Is the incompatibility a side-effect or deliberate (because of reasons)
    3. Is this component developed in-house or can we bother upstream (the company that makes the component)
    4. is it replaceable by an alternative with no performance penalty to the native version (.NET/Mono?)
    5. how big is the pool of unmapped calls
    6. Can this realistically be mapped/reversed by WINE developers
    7. Would Serif applaud or condemn this 
    39 minutes ago, R C-R said:

    optimizing the performance of the apps for each of the three platforms they currently support, most notably using native OS level API's & hardware options specific to each of those three platforms.

    I think that's the GUI. It's not a law that a GUI can't be optimized at the hardware level.

    Quote

    how many Linux advocates do you suppose would settle for Linux versions that were not at least as well optimized to run on their Linux systems as on the Mac & Windows ones, & how long it would take them to do that?

    I don't know. I guess there's an ocean of possibilities between VM speeds (used by some linux users), WINE speeds (remember, triple A games that have not been optimized for Linux or Wine at all are now on par with native performance), and Mac speeds. Linux users are more tolerant than Windows users with performance.

    -edit-

    15 minutes ago, mvlad said:

    That might not work.

    A developer said in 2014 OpenGL was used, but I guess they switched to Direct3D at some point, which is unfortunate.

    -edit 2-

    Or was the developer talking about Photo and the tester talking about Designer?


  11. Ouch. I had forgotten my annoyance with the community here, but this brings it back. I'm thankful that Patrick is the one Serif staff member that kept us up-to-date with informative, patient and objective posts regarding this topic, but sometimes he's a completely different person, greeting multiple new enthusiastic (innocent) users - that aren't even being rude or demanding; just showing their interest and their willingness to pay - with posts dripping in sarcasm and antipathy. Maybe it's a British thing, but it doesn't work out for some other cultures. I (forgot but) remember thinking Patrick's posts were too prepossessed to be considered Serif's voice, and I have been mainly looking to hear from other staffers, because surely not all of Serif doesn't care about alienating Linux users, right?

    23 hours ago, SrPx said:

    Campaigners....lol.  

    Let's call the Linux people 'campaigners' then. The opposition indicated their personal motivation as being protective of their own interests in the form of possible development speed degradation, so perhaps 'protectionists' is a fair label.

    You are correct that these posts have indeed all been read by me. Most of your quotes are just cherry-picked Linux campaigners being rude, and responses to that. I can cherry-pick protectionists being rude in response, but it's irrelevant. I think you focus more on a different aspect of this discussion than I. After cleaning up, your quotes boil down to two statements from Serif staffers:

    1. Let's do a crowd fund set at 500,000
    2. We're not likely to do a Linux version any time soon. 

    Many questions ensue, because there was enthusiasm for the idea of a crowd fund and many good arguments. Yet none was really addressed satisfactory. I think that nothing was addressed after that at all. Just point 2 being re-hashed and slowly changed to a more definite stance as were it a game of Chinese whispers. I come back after a while and observe these same ideas for a crowdfund and following discussions continued 10 more circles. Apparently it's not that clear. This is why I suggested a friendly enthusiastic statement from Serif, not tucked away in 1000 posts, would be the discussion-closing non-alienating PR++ thing to do. Looks like they don't want the discussion to close, and keep it around to collect the occasional good argument, or merely for entertainment purposes.

    Also keep in mind that the actual statements from Serif that is being referred to are years ago. So when in a topic from 2014 there would not be a Linux version in the near future, I can see campaigners wondering if in 2019 perhaps we are now past that old near future, and we can discuss the new near future until the leap year in 2024.

    Another reason Linux campaigners get attributed the label of 'not shutting up about it' and 'not taking no for an answer', besides Serif not closing the door, is really the consequence of protectionists defending Serif's position with argumentational fallacies and quotes out of context. No wonder a campaigner thinks: "I think their assumptions are misguided. There is room for rectification." For example, take your quote:

    23 hours ago, SrPx said:

    this one demonstrates that (...) their data tells them that the users (...) are caring more about other matters than a Linux version:

     

    Saying this shows you attribute relevance to this. But it is not indicative of the Great Unknown Variable™ (defined as: Enough outside demand in the Linux scene to be profitable). It was merely a response to a very specific question. Of course their existing users won't have a Linux version high on their list. Perhaps 1 percent (or more since it's number 5 on said list) of Serif users do dual boot and realize it would be easier if they could remove Windows alltogether. If you want to bring this up, you need to look at the new market potential, at all the non-Serif-users, at the global desire for design software on Linux. So the Adobe on Linux petition had 11k signatures. Those are the people that would be interested in a crowdfund. Early adopters. Initial goal reached. But they are a fraction of the demand, because Linux users are not some Borg hive mind that all know about a petition nor all care to pay an Adobe-sized license where they might pay a Serif-sized license. Once the software exists on the platform, the second wave of public that became aware of this new option will consider buying. I can go on hypothesizing but it would look like I already forgot Serif is not interested. This is for illustrative purposes only, to show how the discussion is kept alive by the people that want to see it end. Protectionists keep giving juicy opportunities to argue.

    That said, for future reference, it's better to quote actual questions and statements rather than rude behavior and frustrated responses.

     

    About a Linux version

    On 9/29/2014 at 9:17 PM, Andy Somerfield said:

    I won't rule out making a Linux version of Affinity, but I need someone to show me a combination of distro, desktop topology and deployment (paid) platform where we would recoup our development costs.

    (Answered: Consensus seems to be Canonical commercial support and Snapcraft covering 20 distributions.)

    On 11/19/2014 at 8:40 AM, MattP said:

    The backend, which does all the work, can be built and run on any platform, but do not underestimate the amount of work that goes into writing the frontend

    (Looks like the backend was built with platform independence in mind. We're talking about a GUI port)

    On 11/20/2014 at 12:47 PM, Ben said:

    (...) we would at least consider any platform where we can make our investment back.  So, for Linux - that'll be $100,000 a copy for each of the five users for us to break even.   ;):P

    (It was a good joke referencing the main variable that was a concern at least back then)

    On 2/12/2015 at 3:53 PM, TonyB said:

    It would require something like a kickstarter campaign with of target of £500k to convince me. 

    (Overwhelming enthusiasm for the idea of a crowdfund ensues, and some volunteers step up to organize one)

    On 5/3/2015 at 11:00 AM, Andy Somerfield said:

    The financing aspect is one problem for sure, but in my opinion the vastly more complicated problem is "which UI framework?"

    GtK - no.. Qt - no.. Java - hell no..

    (Unanswered iirc. 18 months of debate and ideas, until finally:)

    On 10/15/2016 at 8:34 AM, Patrick Connor said:

    There are no plans for a Linux port. We are a small team and will be doing new personas or new products (Publisher, DAM, iPad Photo) in preference to porting the existing ones to Linux.

    (Repetitive pattern:)

    On 1/26/2019 at 10:50 PM, luvis said:

    What if Serif were interested in developing a linux version if they already knew that a sufficient amount of users would buy it? Then why not crowdfund it? (...) Serif could just wait until the goal is met (...) If not, all backers can get their money back

     

    On 6/5/2019 at 6:16 PM, rnmartinez said:

    look at the amount of replies here.  Surely it is worth [re]considering? No one is asking for a free ride - tell us how much.

    (Answer had been given before:)

    On 3/27/2018 at 7:45 PM, Patrick Connor said:

    Serif will support other platforms when it is right for Serif, not when enough (...) money has been pledged/offered.

    (Not for all the gold in the kingdom?)

    About WINE compatibility

    On 9/29/2014 at 9:17 PM, Andy Somerfield said:

    WINE is a wonderful project, but I don't think it would work for Affinity (...) support for things like our use of OpenGL / input interaction would take some work. It also assumes a Windows build to map onto WINE libs - which we don't have.

    (The above has since been addressed by multiple users. Much has been done by WINE devs, CodeWeavers, and Valve over the past 5 years. Triple A games can now be played smoothly.)

    On 10/15/2018 at 11:24 PM, Redsandro said:

    Choosing not to develop a Linux version is fair. How about looking into removing the dependencies that break [WINE] support?

     

    On 11/9/2018 at 2:07 PM, who8mypnuts said:

    [Is there] a workaround to get both Photo and Designer working [on WINE]?

     

    On 11/9/2018 at 2:26 PM, GabrielM said:

    We have no plans to develop a version for Linux and do not have a workaround for [WINE]. Sorry :(

     

    On 2/5/2019 at 7:30 PM, Redsandro said:

    Still haven't heard from Serif if they know or are willing to investigate the dependencies in the Windows version that cause WINE to choke. So while I'm not sure if it's about a trivial thing (...), perhaps they are willing to work towards WINE compatibility (for a price)?

     

    About continuing this discussion

    On 11/25/2015 at 12:02 AM, peter said:

    why not tweet/FB a straw poll to see what the demand is, rather than speculate?

     

    On 10/21/2016 at 6:42 PM, Patrick Connor said:

    That would have to be a very large poll in order to satisfy this criterion

     

    5 hours ago, Unleavened Tech said:

    here is a Strawpoll I made

     

    3 hours ago, Patrick Connor said:

    We are not a democracy, sorry. 

     


  12. 1 hour ago, R C-R said:

    It is (or at least should be) abundantly clear because of what they have not said,

    I think it's a interesting hypothesis at best, but far from abundantly clear.

    One could also hypothesize that they are too busy developing new features. One honest question quickly turns into 4 pages of passionate discussion with lengthy posts. No Serif developer who doesn't care all that much wants to dig through 80 posts of conflict to see if one intelligent question was asked. "Ain't nobody got time for that."

    In fact, the reason I keep asking "why" (are (some of) you so passionately arguing a point you're not in a position to argue) is because I hypothesize that you are purposely diluting honest questions with endless points and re-iterations with the intent of making it unattractive for busy Serif developers to read, precisely so that you can falsely claim their disinterest is intentional and abundantly clear.

    24 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

    Ouch. I got no dog in this fight but

    There is no need to escalate this hypothetical any further. I'm just debunking some accusations that were made to me personally. At the time the proposal was done (by someone) there was no animosity yet (except from some users who felt the development speed would be threatened). There was just a suggestion of a goal and an idea of how to reach that. Perhaps Serif would be enthusiastic that the community would go through such lengths to make something possible, and enthusiastically condone it. However, they were not and dit not. So no one did any campaign against anyone's wishes. And now we know.

    -edit- 

    And now we know people that have been here a couple of years know. But new enthusiastic Affinity using Linux fans don't know, because all this happened tucked away somewhere within hundreds of posts that the new users have never seen. They are under the false impression that Serif might enthusiastically condone it. When the old community members (not Serif) are campaigning against it rather aggressively, those new users don't know or understand that these campaigners are armed with actual knowledge of things that played out before. So the circle keeps happening, and one way to stop this would be with a clear statement from Serif, not a line tucked away between hundreds of posts from years ago.


  13. 33 minutes ago, R C-R said:

    The bottom line remains that all that really matters is what Serif thinks is best for their business, that nobody else knows enough to say what that is, & that they have absolutely no obligation to tell us anything more than that.

    It might be all that matters to them, but it is not all that matters. Serif is alienating 2% of their community and their users. This is a guesstimated number. They might not care. You might not care. Some companies go through great lengths to keep even a single customer happy though. Because approachability, openness and socialbility matter to the customer.

    You told me your reasons for 'campaigning' against a Linux version and that's fair. However, I'm curious why after four pages of arguing everything except my main point, you don't echo my suggestion for a statement that addresses a couple of the questions paying customers who happen to dual boot have about this? Wouldn't that be beneficial to both you and me? Wouldn't that also make Serif look good, as they would be forthcoming and engaging rather than frustratingly meager in their communication in this specific regard?

    6 minutes ago, R C-R said:

    Serif has made it abundantly clear that they are not willing to say much more

    I must admit I have missed that. Could you provide a large quantity of links to separate occurrences where they have stated so?

    abundant
    /əˈbʌnd(ə)nt/
    available in large quantities


  14. 34 minutes ago, Patrick Connor said:

    @Redsandro

    I think you really are reading too much into that $500,000 figure.

    I was answering R C-R's questions as what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. As you can read in yesterday's post, I am not actually advocating this. There are a dozen things begging a response more than that since obsoleted figure.

    32 minutes ago, R C-R said:

    But what was "it" then & what is "it" now? 

    This is "The Affinity Suite of products" forum.

    Quote

    You misunderstood what I was asking. It was not about which Linux distro's Serif would support but about which Affinity app or apps they could develop for $500K, then or now.

    Only Serif knows their business well enough to determine that. Although this is "The Affinity Suite of products" forum. Either way, this discussion is irrelevant.

    It is unfortunate that you managed to lure me into meta-discussion when my point was that Linux users would really appreciate a more forthcoming and verbose statement from Serif that answers Linux related questions from (paying) customers. Now a staffer comes along and really does the opposite of de-escalating by responding to the least interesting assertion in these pages.

    38 minutes ago, mvlad said:

    people here are rooting for Serif to win another fight against Adobe and have the first professional level design software available on Linux and I have to somewhat share their sentiment a bit. When all you see is reasons serif *should* have a Linux port and they don't even make the pre-existing stuff compatible with stuff like WINE nor do they give a public statement then you do get a bit frustrated.

    Yes, perhaps there has been an answer somewhere else: Do we know what blocks WINE and why? Would Serif accept bounties for removing/replacing this part?


  15. 1 hour ago, R C-R said:

    What makes you think that was anything more than a casual, ballpark estimate of the development cost?

    Because Tony said directly and without hesitation it would cost $500,000 to build it, period. You are downplaying it in order to passionately prevent it from happening, but only Serif knows their business well enough to determine that. It would make absolute sense though that they named a bigger number than they would realistically expect to require.

    Quote

    Also, the developer who said that did not say "Linux versions" (plural) so which Affinity app do you think that referred to at the time that comment was posted?

    Asked by Andy, and answered by the community: Ubuntu and Snapcraft. Snapcraft supports over 20 distro's, covering the top 10 most used distro's, with a single package.

    Quote

    what makes you think Serif would be willing to endorse or approve of any third party setting up a crowdfund for this

    This is irrelevant. A trademark infringement is when you cause consumers to be confused about the source of the trademarked item. There is no trademark infringement when a crowdfunding campaign clearly states that they are not Serif, but they are an initiative to prove to Serif that the $500,000 proposed at the time could be raised.

    Quote

    Beyond that, the most frequently stated reason for opposing the developing of Linux versions at this time is the concern that it would adversely affect the continued development & refinement of the existing Mac, Windows, & iPad apps. It is a legitimate concern that the Linux advocates too often try to downplay as nothing more than spin-doctoring by the anti-Linus crowd.

    Because it is spin doctoring. It's turning a fear into fact. For half a million you can hire a team to build a Linux UI framework in parallel to the Windows team, the OSX team, and the core team. You probably need a separate team for that either way, because Windows developers are Windows developers.

    Quote

    the bottom line is only Serif knows their business well enough to determine that.

    Looks like we're in agreement after all. Don't you think a clear and verbose official statement on a blog or website that everyone can point to when another crowdfund is suggested for the 12th time would be a good way to finally settle this?


  16. 1 hour ago, SrPx said:

    In another company, in their forums, a post like that would last minutes, maybe link edited, or thread closed. In the least case, a warning from a mod. You wont get any of that here. Unless someone now will find it funny to prove me wrong, hehe.....Well is not usual any action in that direction around here : I  have only seen one instance of that in years (but after very very repeated promo) , but might be just that I have not seen other warnings.

    Even though I have my criticism of Affinity with regards to this very topic and we're debating either how to fill a gap in the market that Affinity is not willing to fill or how to convince Affinity to change their mind, I have also shown my love by purchasing two licenses from them just to show my support. Admittedly, they had just released the Windows version and my hope was that a Linux version would follow soon, which I would gladly purchase again at 200% cost. With that said, people can feel free to "report post" and let moderators decide. It's still their forum and they can decide how far this discussion is allowed to go.

    Quote

    Now that has been mentioned again, I keep saying that Gimp, latest stable  -although haven't tried lately any of the non stable line- versions are very capable for basic hobbyists, advanced ones, and till some large extent, pros. There are youtube channels with Gimp tutorials (100% dedicated to teaching Gimp, for free) where anyone can very easily verify this tool's capabilities. Photo is just way ahead, is at another point and moment, clearly. But is not like you can't do a lot of production work with Gimp. In this world we need more patience than money. Of course, I would not go back to Gimp, being Affinity a reality. But have used it (Gimp) for serious stuff for long time. Is wildly underrated. Like Wings 3D. Luckily Blender is getting more of the praise it deserves, but yet a fraction of what it should get (even from the actual community).

    I can high-five you on this for the most part. I use GIMP nearly daily. But it is definitely in nearly every way not Affinity Photo or Adobe Photoshop. Just try to put a nice title with some border and shadow and what not on a picture you want to use for a photo magazine cover and export CMYK. See how long it takes three different people on Adobe Photoshop, Affinity Photo, and GIMP. You'll find that the first two are on par, and the latter takes an unreasonable amount of time. The GIMP user will be working on that darn border while the first two are out having lunch. He'll be faster doing it programmatically. That ease of use is worth money. Not all the money in the world, but a certain amount of money. It varies from person to person. For me personally, it's worth about 200% of the price of Affinity Photo.

    Blender, which I also worked with is a whole different game. While GIMP is really far behind compared to Photo and Photoshop, Blender is really top notch. I preferred working with it even though I had access to 3d Studio Max and Lightwave through the company I worked at. Blender is so advanced and full-featured, it hurts a little when Blender as a FOSS alternative to commercial 3d software is compared to GIMP as a FOSS alternative to commercial 2d software.

    Blender is used on a lot of tv shows (like Westworld). As for movies, Next Gen (Netflix) is done entirely in Blender. Jeff Bell: "We're effectively 100% Blender, other than plugging in apps in a few areas to supplement departmental workflows"

    Quote

    I have my concerns about performance when is a browser based app. All instances that I have tested in many fields, end up with a solution that can't handle really heavy projects. And I mean both 3D and 2D. Is as if the emulation, or browser limitations, not full hardware access, or whatever, are getting in the way.

    I've been to some developer conferences and big strides are being made with WebASM. Assembly is the language that is compiled to machine language, and WebASM is a pretty new technology in development to compile binaries straight from the browser. In a lot of cases performance is nearly on par with native apps, although some functions to achieve this goal have not yet been implemented. It's quite beta. Here is an example where they compiled the game Doom 3 in WebASM and WebGL. Check the performance, it works for me in Chrome 76 on Linux. I believe that - while not this year - in a year or two perhaps web based apps will slowly start to get to the forefront. You will see more and more Progressive Web Apps (that are multiplatform) rather than native apps.


  17. 14 hours ago, R C-R said:

    one of the developers mentioned $500K as a ballpark estimate for some initial version, but that was never a "goal" in the sense some people took it to be

    You're giving a bit of a spin on what actually happened. It's quite simple. It was literally said they would consider a Linux version if they were confident they would recoup the $500,000 it would cost to develop. Nothing more, nothing less. Once someone was actually going to set up a crowdfund to raise $500,000, they quickly stated that they would not consider a Linux version regardless.

    I think one of the reasons Serif doesn't officially and verbosely respond to the interest and their decision cq change of heart is because of the volunteer spindoctors among their community that passionately reject Linux aspirations (Why? To what end?) in their stead, using the repetitive argumentum ad logicam that Serif themselves haven't actually made. And even if Serif might have inadvertently appeared to do so in the beginning of this topic, they retracted said argument by stating a Linux version will not be considered regardless. The current limbo is beneficial for them because it keeps hopes up for Linux users so that they won't wander off and grow some competitor's community (any competitor that hasn't rejected Linux as a near-future possibility), which is more likely to happen if they would make an official statement that there won't be a Linux version.

    14 hours ago, R C-R said:

    nor is it still likely even to be a decent ballpark estimate now, after so many improvements & new features have been added to Photo & Designer.

    I recall a developer saying in one of these topics that the core of the software is actually already platform independent. If this is accurate, it would be extra work in the platform dependent UI only. As a developer, I estimate that 80% of the cost for setting up a new platform asset is building the custom framework that makes the UI possible on that platform. 20% is for developing the interface itself. So even if an estimated 10% of functionality was added to the interface in the last year; that would translate to 102% of initially stated development cost. So even though this is irrelevant since there won't be a Linux version, and even though this is just debating a guess versus an educated guess, I am confident that the initial statement of development cost is still accurate, and this argument too does not make me think anything has changed considerably.


  18. 18 hours ago, LucasKA said:

    why hasn't anyone stepped up to the plate other than a bad KS?

    In response to this, and also for Linux users that mention using GIMP as much as possible so they don't have to boot Windows: You can also try the multi platform Polarr Photo Editor (Basic version is free, full version is $24 per year).

    It's available on Snapcraft, and as you can see on the statistics this snap is used on Ubuntu, Linux Mint, Zorin OS, KDE Neon, Elementary OS, Fedora, Debian, Deepin, Manjaro, Parrot PS and Arch Linux. Maybe more.

    While it doesn't compare to Affinity Photo or Adobe Photoshop by a long shot (so I think in light of this discussion it's okay for me to mention this app, and if not, moderators should feel free to remove this post), it does have pretty descent RAW photo support and might make a hobbyist happy for being able to do quick photo series while on holiday or something.

    Also available for Android tablets and Chromebooks (and of course Windows).

    "Anyone can argue that if what we’re doing is not making money, then it’s probably not worth doing anyway. Fortunately, we see a large number of people who are willing to pay, and we believe Polarr does have a product-market fit in the photo enthusiast community."

    14 hours ago, mvlad said:

    as someone who would love to be able to work on the go easier and across multiple platforms, web-based design apps seem like the future.

    Especially when they work offline too, and can be installed as a stand-alone app. I believe Polarr is an Electron app.


  19. 8 hours ago, Keith Reeder said:

    They are not "ignoring demand" - you simply haven't proven that there is sufficient demand. 

    I'm sorry, but you can't offer this circulus in demonstrando. Once users started to organize a crowd funding campaign that would definitely prove or disprove whether or not there would be enough demand to recoup the costs, Affinity informed us that they would not do a Linux version even if the goal would be reached, effectively stopping the community initiative from definitively probing the demand.

    The result is two-fold. One, we haven't proven demand. But more importantly, you can't argue that we can't prove demand after stopping attempts to do just that.

    So yes, it is my view and the view of some of my peers that Serif is actively stifling serious attempts to probe demand. If this perception is wrong, it could be beneficial in a PR sense to write an official statement or semiofficial blog post as suggested before.

    Quote

    And the sneering comes from Linux zealots like yourself, not from Serif.

    This is a classic argumentum ad hominem. I see you do that a lot. There was nothing remotely zealous about my post. Obviously, I'm not inciting a rebellious movement. I'm telling people that further proceedings have lost practical significance, which is basically the opposite of an uncompromising pursuit. Your relentless anti-Linux propaganda stream of logical fallacies over the past year or so (Why? To what end?) have more in common with the definition of a zealot, so I think you are projecting.

    8 hours ago, R C-R said:

    They have also very clearly & openly stated that crowd sourced funding does not fit their business model, but that has not stopped the constantly recurring suggestions to do exactly that.

    They have not done so back when I was in this discussion, two odd years or so ago. So I think "very clearly and openly" is quite a flattering way of saying that someone wrote a comment somewhere between the thousands of posts on this forum. I believe the fact that the "idea" to crowdfund keeps popping up proofs this. People suggesting this weren't there when it almost happened and was shot down. This is why I believe a written blog post or verbose official statement would be a good idea. Everyone can just point to the article and the circular discussion is over.

     


  20. On 6/5/2019 at 12:17 PM, the42dude said:

    "500.000 to develop Linux version"

    Where is the crowdfunding link to get a Linux port?

    There were some people starting to set it up, and staff responded that it was moot because even with the money raised they would not make a Linux version.

    Remember to say thanks to the announcement that there won't be a Linux version.

    image.png.6b734075570ebd963b255194c41c6b8d.png


  21. Dear @kleber.swf and others,

    I understand the frustration. First, Serif said: We would need to be confident that we'd recoup a certain amount of cost. Then the community said: Okay. We will crowdsource that amount. Some folks started preparing a campaign, and Serif was quick to respond: Please don't do it. Even if you raise the money, we decided not to do it.

    I also understand the frustration about their lack of oppenness to the community. First they giveth (a set of rules that would make a Linux version possible) then taketh away. And they don't communicate their rationale.

    With the immense performance boost of WINE/Linux in recent years, and the compatibility with many triple A titles, people wonder why Affinity products have some secret sause that causes them not to work with WINE. Because WINE-compatibility would seem like a descent middle-ground loved and appreciated by Linux users. I haven't been able to get a comment about that.

    While a forthcoming and verbose blog or article from Affinity/Serif to their Linux fanbase - who are often paying customers with a Windows license - about their rationale and answers to the questions about the change of heart and WINE problems would surely make those community members fall in love, Serif is taking a different approach of mostly ignoring the demand except for the occasional sneer that we can't just demand a Linux version. And they are right.

    So that's it. We feel like it would make sense to build a Linux version. And with people saying that the core is basically platform independent so 'only' the UI would need to be ported to Linux, it feels closer than ever. But it's not going to happen. Serif has decided. They are not the Linux heros some of us hoped. Let's stop promoting Affinity among our colleagues as Adobe killer, and wait for something more inclusive to come along.

    All you can do is go to the posts where some of the staff summarize their position and click thanks -> sad face on the bottom right to document your point of view in numbers.

    image.png.9d275cb51ad737a8191c763e5f03b063.png

     


  22. My colleague is using PS CC 2018 in Linux. Claims it works fine. 

    With the new Wine 4.0, Adobe Photoshop CC 2018 seems to work on Fedora (Silver), Ubuntu (Bronze) and OpenSuse (Platinum):

    https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=36206&iTestingId=104933

    On Wine 3, it can be done but requires some work:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/7ql4kl/the_screenshots_of_photoshop_cc_2018_64bit_on/

    I have not tested this myself. I unsubscribed from Adobe CC years ago because I am not using it enough to warrant a fulltime fee each month. I'm following the developments with interest though, because as we all (some) know, the first software that works fine across distro's without the need to do a lot of workarounds will win the Linux market share. (Unless it's Adobe CC because that's simply too expensive for freelancers that won't use it fulltime.)

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