Font size x-height

[hoody1983]

Hi guys,

 

I can't find anything relevant on the forum, so I appreciate all your ideas.

I've been asked to create a label, where the minimum font-size of the text to be 1.5mm of the x-height of the lowercase x in the font used.

 

Font type does not matter (I used Arial) and set up as 1.5mm, however, that value is related to capital letters.

Lowercases are approx. 0.8mm, so my question is: is there any way (not considering manual measurement) to set up lowercase height at 1.5mm, regardless of the capitals height?

 

I'm not pointing out, that 1.5mm font is actually 1.4mm as per TRANSFORM panel, but I actually wish to know, what is the actual size of the font - 1.5mm or 1.4mm?

 

Unless, manual measurement (like below) is the only way to adjust lowercases to desired size?

[GarryP]

I’m not entirely sure of what you are being asked for.

For instance, I don’t know what “1.5mm of the x-height of the lowercase x” means because I don’t know how you can get a measurement (1.5mm) of another measurement (x-height)?

It would like me asking for, for example, “three centimetres of a meter”, which would be three centimetres (of anything, three centimetres is three centimetres).

Can you check the exact requirements so we set off down the right path from the start?

[hoody1983]

Hi @GarryP,

Any lowercases should be 1.5mm height.

 

For now when you put 1.5mm as font size, that acutual size is related to the capitals.

At the same time, lowercases are proportionally smaller (0.8mm in that case).

So I am asking, is there any way to set up lowercase size to 1.5mm and ignore capitals (which should enlarge proportionally).

[Old Bruce]

8 minutes ago, hoody1983 said:

So I am asking, is there any way to set up lowercase size to 1.5mm and ignore capitals (which should enlarge proportionally).

Not really, a lot of fonts have different x heights. So a dozen fonts would each be a unique size in order for the x heights to all be 1.5 mm.

[GarryP]

Thanks for the clarification hoody1983.

I’m not aware of it being possible for the user to select the x-height for characters – I’ve never seen that option anywhere – but someone else might know if it can be done.

There’s an “xheight” variable that’s mentioned in the Expressions section of the Help but there’s no instructions for how (or where) to use it.

[hoody1983]

Thanks @Old Bruce, I thinkt that's why they said x height - so keep the x letter as the reference point.

I know some of the other lowercases might be higher or lower, that's why x is our matrix letter.

Consideing your good point, I think, if we set up all capitals as 1.5mm, then should be no massive difference between x and e, n or any other lowercase.

 

I would not be so strict with that, but this was mentioned in a new Irish government regulations of safety labels.

If there is no option to set this up, I can always manually adjust font and stick on something very close to the actual requirements.

[hoody1983]

1 minute ago, GarryP said:

Thanks for the clarification hoody1983.

I’m not aware of it being possible for the user to select the x-height for characters – I’ve never seen that option anywhere – but someone else might know if it can be done.

There’s an “xheight” variable that’s mentioned in the Expressions section of the Help but there’s no instructions for how (or where) to use it.

Yep, I checked in Help file too... not much info about it.

I can always do it manually - not the best way but don' get crazy - these are just fractions of milimeter 😅

[GarryP]

In my experience (from many years back), if you’re working with labels then any proscribed text/icon sizes/weights can, in some circumstances, be very important and getting them wrong can be a costly exercise.

For instance, if a government standard tells you that the text x-height should be a certain size then if the x-height is not the that size (within tolerances) then you could be told that the label is non-conformant and the whole lot will need to be re-designed and re-printed.

This might not be relevant to what you are doing but it’s something to be aware of.

[hoody1983]

1 minute ago, GarryP said:

In my experience (from many years back), if you’re working with labels then any proscribed text/icon sizes/weights can, in some circumstances, be very important and getting them wrong can be a costly exercise.

For instance, if a government standard tells you that the text x-height should be a certain size then if the x-height is not the that size (within tolerances) then you could be told that the label is non-conformant and the whole lot will need to be re-designed and re-printed.

This might not be relevant to what you are doing but it’s something to be aware of.

This is exactly what I'm facing now @GarryP... and I am happy that your experience in that matter just confirmed my doubts.

Any safety signs or pictograms must be at least 10 x 10mm and font size at least 1.5mm.

My first sentence ("the minimum font-size of the text to be 1.5mm of the x-height of the lowercase x in the font used") is taken directly from regulation.

I believe the fraction of 0.1mm might be not considered as an error in regualr prints, but in this case, I must be 100% sure I'm doing it right.

That's why I'm so detailed in getting the right answer (don't want to print hundreds/thousands of boxes, where the newest regulations are not met) 🙂

[Old Bruce]

Here are three fonts chosen at random.  The guides are 1.5 mm and the numbers below show the size in points for the different fonts to give the different font's x a 1.5 mm height.

 

[hoody1983]

2 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

Here are three fonts chosen at random.  The guides are 1.5 mm and the numbers below show the size in points for the different fonts to give the different font's x a 1.5 mm height.

 

Yep, many thanks @Old Bruce, it might be actually a case to change the font and match 1.5mm of x lowercase.

I must also consider the amount of information, as the label is fairly small so chosen font must fit into it.

 

Many thanks for your try anyway, it is actaually a good idea!

[kenmcd]

5 hours ago, hoody1983 said:

I would not be so strict with that, but this was mentioned in a new Irish government regulations of safety labels.

If there is no option to set this up, I can always manually adjust font and stick on something very close to the actual requirements.

Do you have a link to these regulations?

I assume this is all related to making sure the text is easy to read.
Fonts designed for smaller sizes tend to have higher x-Height.

So any "Caption" font would be a good option.
PT Sans Caption, PT Serif Caption, Minion Pro Caption, all the AFF11 caption fonts, etc.

Fonts with an Optical Size (opsz) axis which goes below normal text size.
Nunito Sans variable has an opsz axis which goes from 12pt down to 6pt.
Others with opsz on Google Fonts: Roboto Flex, Literata, Merriweather, Newsreader, Roboto Serif, Bricolage Grotesque, and more.
Some of these also have a Width (wdth) axis which may be useful.

Interface fonts tend to have a higher x-Height and some attention to optical size.
Inter (which you are reading right now), Segoe UI (Windows), SF Pro (Mac), Roboto (Android).
Inter Tight is a version of Inter which was created for a Google app where space is tight.

Using the metrics in the font you can calculate exactly the point size needed to get the x-Height to 1.5mm.
Here is an example of similar calculations using the cap height:
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/211108-affinity-suite-calculating-the-size-of-artistic-text/#findComment-1257424 

If you pick a font, I can walk you thru the calculations using the x-Height.

 

 

[hoody1983]

14 hours ago, kenmcd said:

Do you have a link to these regulations?

I assume this is all related to making sure the text is easy to read.
Fonts designed for smaller sizes tend to have higher x-Height.

So any "Caption" font would be a good option.
PT Sans Caption, PT Serif Caption, Minion Pro Caption, all the AFF11 caption fonts, etc.

Fonts with an Optical Size (opsz) axis which goes below normal text size.
Nunito Sans variable has an opsz axis which goes from 12pt down to 6pt.
Others with opsz on Google Fonts: Roboto Flex, Literata, Merriweather, Newsreader, Roboto Serif, Bricolage Grotesque, and more.
Some of these also have a Width (wdth) axis which may be useful.

Interface fonts tend to have a higher x-Height and some attention to optical size.
Inter (which you are reading right now), Segoe UI (Windows), SF Pro (Mac), Roboto (Android).
Inter Tight is a version of Inter which was created for a Google app where space is tight.

Using the metrics in the font you can calculate exactly the point size needed to get the x-Height to 1.5mm.
Here is an example of similar calculations using the cap height:
https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/211108-affinity-suite-calculating-the-size-of-artistic-text/#findComment-1257424 

If you pick a font, I can walk you thru the calculations using the x-Height.

 

 

Hi @kenmcd

Here's a link to the full regulation text: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:L_202402865, and the table I took the numebrs from is located on page 25. We're producing liquids up to 0.5 litres and our boxes are fairly small. So, in some cases, it is a challenge to even fit 52 x 74mm label on the box.

[Oufti]

For a simple solution, I would place guides for the minimum x-height (1.2 mm if I read well) and just make sure visually that my text in the chosen font is not smaller than that. 

[hoody1983]

1 minute ago, Oufti said:

For a simple solution, I would place guides for the minimum x-height (1.2 mm if I read well) and just make sure visually that my text in the chosen font is not smaller than that. 

Hi @Oufti - yep, this is the "manual" solution I consider as the very latest if no other options in Affinity.

I thought , this can be easily controlable by the function I'm not awared of, but most probably manually adjustment is the easiest one.