Affinity Publisher - Hyphenation Problem

[elbchaussee]

I am working with the layout of a historic novel (in German, but that doesn't matter, I think).

Using as style for most of the book "Bodytext", I set the hyphenation as indicated in screenshot 2. Nevertheless the hyphenation rule (minimum prefix/suffix 3) seems to be disregarded - see paragraph beginning with "Ein Artikel auf der ersten Seite des Journals […]", right page. There are a lot of spaces ...

Into the line beginning with "Wanderungen" of that paragraph some parts of the first word in the next line should fit; the German hyphenation is "un-ter-nom-men".

What should/must I do?

Thanks in advance!

And just to mention it: This is a wonderful, really interesting forum.

[walt.farrell]

The language does matter. 

Have you specified that the text is in German? What are the Language settings in the Character section of your Text Style? And what shows for Language when you put the cursor in the text and look in the Character panel?

 

[elbchaussee]

Thanks, walt.farrell, that helped. I had as character style "no style" and applied now a character style named "Basic Text" to every paragraph of the book, spelling and hyphenation in German.

But there are still paragraphs with too much of space between words: See line 4 on page 63 (paragraph beginning with "Mein Knappe geleitete mich […]".

As you can see in the second screenshot with that paragraph the word "schmerzhafte" of the former line 5 fits with its’ first syllable into line 4 if I hyphen it manually (using Ctrl-Shift and - minus).

Two questions: Is there a way to find an "automatic" solution?

And why do I have to use a character style - everything is enlisted in the paragraph style or isn't it?

Thank you very much in advance.

[walt.farrell]

50 minutes ago, elbchaussee said:

And why do I have to use a character style - everything is enlisted in the paragraph style or isn't it?

You don't need a Character Text Style, if the Character section of your Paragraph Text Style has the proper Language settings specified.

54 minutes ago, elbchaussee said:

But there are still paragraphs with too much of space between words: See line 4 on page 63 (paragraph beginning with "Mein Knappe geleitete mich […]".

As you can see in the second screenshot with that paragraph the word "schmerzhafte" of the former line 5 fits with its’ first syllable into line 4 if I hyphen it manually (using Ctrl-Shift and - minus).

Two questions: Is there a way to find an "automatic" solution?

Possibly your hyphenation settings are incorrect and need to be adjusted.

Can you share a partial sample .afpub file with the page that you've shown?

 

[elbchaussee]

Thank for your help - much appreciated.

I attach the file you've asked for. On the right hand page the red word "Samstagsfrühstück" (Saturday's breakfast") fits with "Samstags-" in the line above when hyphened manually ...

Knights-Templar_partial-afpub.afpub

[elbchaussee]

* Thanks

[walt.farrell]

I don't understand what you mean by

21 minutes ago, elbchaussee said:

the red word "Samstagsfrühstück" (Saturday's breakfast") fits with "Samstags-" in the line above when hyphened manually

But perhaps the problem is font-related, as I don't have Adobe Garamond Pro. If you could use Save As Package and zip the results, that would help further.

But it may not be necessary. Here's what I see when I open your document:

From this:

1. The line 2 above the red word is the one with excess spacing.
2. The word Morgenmahlzeiten is not recognized by the German dictionary, as shown by it being underlined in red.
3. If I manually insert a soft hyphen to make Morgen-mahlzeiten then Morgen- moves up to the previous line, and the red word ends up at the beginning of its line:
   

So, perhaps the issue is just that it doesn't know how to hyphenate the unknown words?

But if you want to provide the packaged file, so I can see it with the correct font, I'm happy to look further.

[elbchaussee]

That's very kind, Walt. Voilà!

Knights-Templar_partial-afpub.afpackage

[walt.farrell]

Thanks, but I also need the Fonts folder (sorry for not being clear) which is why I suggested zipping it.

[MikeW]

36 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Thanks, but I also need the Fonts folder (sorry for not being clear) which is why I suggested zipping it.

The font, other than possibly/probably having an effect on text flow, won't affect the hyphenation issue. 

[walt.farrell]

6 minutes ago, MikeW said:

The font, other than possibly/probably having an effect on text flow, won't affect the hyphenation issue. 

True, but the text flow is important in Hyphenation

[MikeW]

30 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

True, but the text flow is important in Hyphenation

Not really. It can only affect what words are on what line. If one gets a different line ending using  a different typeface, one only needs to adjust the frame width to approximate the original line ending of an affected word to see if hyphenation occurs with that word.

[MikeW]

btw, QXP handles these words properly as regards hyphenation when I use the German Hunspell hyphenation dictionary. However, it is reported as misspelled when using the current German dictionaries unless I use one of the Swiss/German dictionaries. 

[thomaso]

9 hours ago, elbchaussee said:

What should/must I do?

I can't open V2 but in V1 I don't see problems of unexpected large gaps between words with your hyphenation setting (prefix/suffix 3). In my sample I marked two paragraphs in orange that seem to have large gaps / missing hyphenation. (e.g. "Got-tes-dienst" on page 63). I also get hyphenation for a word that is marked by spell check ("Feld-spi-tale"). – Can you copy your objects into a V1 .afpub to see if it makes a difference in your setup?

Possible hint: when I activated spell check I got half the text marked at first … and I had to "re-assign" the two Grman options (I just clicked on the menu without altering my setting) to reduce the number of marked words. So, maybe it helps in your situation if you just assign the languages once more?

[thomaso]

@elbchaussee, I wonder whether hyphenation changed different in V2. – Can you open this V1 .afpub in your V2 APub and see if you get the hyphenation in the same way?

The bottom layer is a (locked) PDF export with pink assigned for easier comparison of hyphenation in V1 vs V2. When you open this .afpub you shouldn't see pink characters, if you do check differences of fonts or of hyphenation.

v1105 hyphenation German.afpub

P.S.: has anybody an idea what makes this sRGB .afpub increase to 3.4 MB, while it contains two embedded files with 100 kB only?

[walt.farrell]

11 minutes ago, thomaso said:

I wonder whether hyphenation changed different in V2. – Can you open this V1 .afpub in your V2 APub and see if you get the hyphenation in the same way?

Good test method; thanks!

For what it's worth, my 2.1.1 Publisher seems to have hyphenated your document the same way that you expected from 1.10.

13 minutes ago, thomaso said:

P.S.: has anybody an idea what makes this sRGB .afpub increase to 3.4 MB, while it contains two embedded files with 100 kB only?

Doing a Save As under a new name, using 2.1.1, gives 1.8 MB.

[thomaso]

5 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

For what it's worth, my 2.1.1 Publisher seems to have hyphenated your document the same way that you expected from 1.10.

That's a good result. @elbchaussee. can you confirm this, especially for certain words like those styled in 'bold', like "Sams-tagsfrühstück"?

5 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

Doing a Save As under a new name, using 2.1.1, gives 1.8 MB.

Interesting. Do you have any idea why "Save As…" doesn't work for me to reduce file size / get rid of data trash? – And why at all the two comparable tiny embedded resources and/or the "Colour Overlay" layer effect applied to the vector-only PDF resource layer lead to a file size far above 100 kB in this sRGB .afpub?

[walt.farrell]

56 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Interesting. Do you have any idea why "Save As…" doesn't work for me to reduce file size / get rid of data trash? – And why at all the two comparable tiny embedded resources and/or the "Colour Overlay" layer effect applied to the vector-only PDF resource layer lead to a file size far above 100 kB in this sRGB .afpub?

Sorry; no. Perhaps it's just one of the many V1 bugs fixed in V2.

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

fixed in V2.

Since the V2 version results in 1.8 MB for that .afpub I don't really see a "fix".

Do you get a more reasonable file size if you create that .afpub with its two resources from scratch in V2?

[thomaso]

On 9/5/2023 at 1:57 PM, elbchaussee said:

Into the line beginning with "Wanderungen" of that paragraph some parts of the first word in the next line should fit; the German hyphenation is "un-ter-nom-men".

Have you been able to fix it in the meantime? To me in V1 all these possible words get hyphenated as expected: Samstagsfrühstück, Wanderungen, unternehmen, Grundmauern, while un-ternommen requires a reduced min. prefix of 2 (different to your used 3).

Since in your first screenshot of your initial post none of these words get hyphenated I assume the languages for spelling / hyphenation were not properly assigned to the text. It might help to select all text (with Text Tool) and select the two language menu entries "Deutsch" once again.

17 hours ago, thomaso said:

Since the V2 version results in 1.8 MB for that .afpub I don't really see a "fix".

Do you get a more reasonable file size if you create that .afpub with its two resources from scratch in V2?

@walt.farrell, in the meantime I understand the 'issue' with the file size of 1.8 MB if a small 43 kB .pdf is embedded: It is caused by the fact that a placed PDF set to "Passthrough" is displayed via a pixel image (not vector text). So, in this case of small font size / many characters, placed at 400% in a 300 dpi .afpub it might rather be a 'normal' resulting file size, assuming such preview images get saved as .png files with the .afpub.