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Jowday

Why did Serif delete the entire roadmap thread

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I'll reply better at other time, as am in a rush right now, but wanted to already comment about something:

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the NDA I signed makes me feel more like an “unpaid tester”. An “unpaid tester” who failed on his duties for a while, but who fully wished to make due on his promises, and who was duly and promptly ignored when dishing out harsh warnings. Maybe I got an overly inflated sense of self, and indeed I readjusted my expectations upon learning, when watching the Keynote, that there were thousands of us (though I'd still argue that in a sea of millions, we're still Serif's “1%ers”, and being a teacher in training, that does add some colour to that sentiment, but I digress). Anyway, I'm sorry if I'm not always nice, but I'm usually honest.

Many of us are current testers of several ( I believe if I were (not saying I am or not) one of those testers, like you, I think what is signed typically (the usual NDA) does not even allow you to say so)  applications (and some of us have been official testers some centuries ago of some that then grew to empires, today). When you become a tester (NDA signed and other legal approaches) you are only offering help, voluntarily. Again, there is not a payment based relationship (you are not paying them to have a say, for example) in any direction (there is paid beta testing, but that is a different animal). Also, one can't fall in that "Mr nice" trap (you know, those super kind gentlemen with a pretended one, which get mad when the woman doesn't respond (even if kindly) in the way they particularly wanted) . You know, how when one does good to some cause, apparently generously, but in reality expecting a lot more in exchange, as if it had been a business rather than an effort to help, even if agreed (I mean, even written) from both parts to be the latter. You are not signing the NDA to help in a way where you have a say in how they will organize their business (in any case, they would owe you even less if you "failed on your duties for a while", that's a "breach of contract", very forgivable as is volunteer help, but really removes all shadow of doubt in the point I'm making (If I'd see any), but the truth is that it is not the agreement usually signed -yet to find a single NDA giving me those attributions-, in any way one could put it) . You are signing just to test their solutions, full stop. The rest is personal attribution (or imagination) out of nowhere, imo (with all respect)... Many of us did things like that, testers and whatnot and don't have a shadow of that sentiment. I helped so much, and so many people in the forums, with what one could call real support cases (not really doing that anymore), that I could feel that way, or quite more, because as I say, I'm also tester of several apps, not gonna say the names or brands. But now that we talk about honesty, nope, feeling that way would be far from honest (I don't doubt on you sincerely believing it's honest). I have not been offered a payment to do that, one agrees to the conditions. Neither I am paying them for anything more than getting that day a closed product. Neither am paying for being a tester. Is all out of my good will (as with any of the testers), and the last thing one must do is request pay back from a volunteer, good action... As then wasn't that generous or sincere, to start with, but also, as is not expressed in any paper that one would get that say and attribution in how they build their app or manage their business.  

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Maybe I got an overly inflated sense of self,

Sadly, trust me : we both have it, or we'd write shorter (not recommending you to write shorter, that'd be funny and blatant hypocrisy coming from me, and also, I don't mind reading long texts, when I have the time (I don't have enough right now, but will do later). 


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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On 7/25/2019 at 3:52 AM, JGD said:

In hindsight, I probably should've had the same level of respect, so yeah. I'll take that lesson from you. ;)

I cut your quote short there, because you did repeat yourself a bit. The only reason I'm not criticising you for doing the same that I do, is… well, because I do it, too. :D (No, really, I'm not criticising, I'm just acknowledging it). But it does work well with me (reinforcing a point until it's, well… pretty much covered). Still, I should just say that… Serif did create an expectation of free and quick updates.

So… we were probably as shocked with the Publisher delay, and just how hard 1.7 was to get out of the door also, as Apple customers were when Leopard was delayed because of the iPhone. Again, in hindsight, my past knowledge of how internal management can seem to apparently have gone awry from an outside perspective and, yet, still be fully under control from an internal one, should've made me know better.

Ah. Except I'm not just a “paying customer”. Sorry to interject and turn your argument on its head, but… the NDA I signed makes me feel more like an “unpaid tester”. An “unpaid tester” who failed on his duties for a while, but who fully wished to make due on his promises, and who was duly and promptly ignored when dishing out harsh, belated warnings. Maybe I got an overly inflated sense of self, and indeed I readjusted my expectations upon learning, when watching the Keynote, that there were thousands of us (though I'd still argue that in a sea of millions, we're still Serif's “1%ers”, and being a teacher in training, that does add some colour to that sentiment, but I digress). Anyway, I'm sorry if I'm not always nice, but I'm usually honest. When I say I'm not recommending Designer to students, well… I'm not. The least I could give Serif is the explanation I owe them for that and other decisions.

I feel embarrassed by the way I write long, inscrutable texts, and how I let – nay, actively contributed to make – an otherwise civil discussion devolve into something a bit less so. But I'm most definitely not embarrassed of speaking the truth. Only the form was mostly wrong, and not most of the substance. Look, I might've been wrong and naïve in feeling overly pumped up about Designer, but I've said time and time again that I was far from the only person I know of who was and got disappointed. Facts are facts, regardless of how they may make other people feel. Could I have been more sensible about the way I put it? Absolutely. Would that have contributed towards a better relationship with Serif? Also likely. Would the information I would eventually give have been materially different? Unfortunately, no, because the source material (i.e. my experience with the product and the feedback from third parties) would still be the same.

Duly noted, and thank you for that recognition. On that subject, it does seem that I am better at public speaking than at writing, which is kind of ridiculous because the former calls for a lot more improv and the latter should allow me to take more time and be more sensitive with other people. It boggles the mind, really, and if I ever crack the code, I'll be sure to try to be – and hopefully succeed at being – nicer “in writing” as well (I would venture a guess and say, though, that maybe the physical disconnect when hammering at a keyboard and not seeing other people's faces or even listening to one's own voice has something to do with it). People have been making the same suggestion you just made, and I seriously took it into consideration. Since I can't seem to help myself with my musings, I'll probably record videos and still add further commentary to them, as some sort of “public notes/thought process”, but at least the former should be self-explanatory enough and materially contribute to the advancement of the Affinity range, and if the developers wish to skip the fluff if and when they don't have the time, they'll at least still get something usable out of my efforts.

As for me having been unfair, I fully own up to it. I will, however, not change my general stance, as I do believe criticism is the best drive for progress. It may not always seem so, and my hissy fits may paint the picture of a deranged, selfish mind, but rest assured that I would never do anything which I believed to be really destructive or against Serif's interests. If I had a truly twisted, grandiose, narcissistic mind, I'd take my videos asking for new features and criticising Affinity in direct comparison with Adobe CC apps and post them straight to a YouTube channel of my own (kind of like the otherwise venerable Louis Rossman and his endless, anti-Apple rants that, for all their merits, are stale and bothersome by now, even considering the existential threat their substance poses to his own business; the same could be said of the threat Adobe CC costing what it does and Affinity not yet being a workable alternative poses to my own, and you don't see me going his overly public, self-serving, holier-than-thou route), instead of here, in the farthest recesses of Serif's own forums, where moderators may delete them right away if they so wish (in fact, if the Serif team asked me to send them my feedback videos directly, far from the prying eyes of the other users and the competition alike, I'd gladly do so, as I oh-so-often volunteered to do). I could probably even make good money from it if I went a different route. Except I won't, because I still have a conscience, and wouldn't feel at all happy being in the business of dissing others for personal gain (obviously with all due respect to all critics, whatever their personal niche may be; I can only deal with a hands-on, private-ish critical approach – Academia as a whole being a bit of a gray area, because it's very much public but still full of all these different, small niches –, and perhaps that's also why I'd like to become a teacher). Also, even though I like to pull the subject to myself more often than not, I do focus on Serif as a company, on Affinity as a product, and especially on its end-users (mostly from my perspective, yes, because that's the one I know best, but I always acknowledge there are workflows different than mine – some of which I personally know up-close, by the way – and that they should be catered for as well).

And Serif, for me, is indeed something other than just another big, faceless company. Technically it's not perfect, in strictly practical terms it's way behind, and some of the culture could probably use some fine tuning, but it's still about the best in its camp, so… And I know for a fact that even the big ones are filled with decent, hardworking people (I personally know a lot of them); I usually only lash out in any material way at truly evil companies (some certain social network companies come to mind), and specifically at their executives, so there's that. Those are the real psychopaths (more often than not, literally, as statistics prove it time and time again), and the ones who we should all be seriously concerned about.

I will, however, dish out a temporary 1/2/3-star review “in Serif's best interest” for an application otherwise rated as a 5-star product, if I really believe it's best to keep über-pro CC users at bay for a little while until things are more stabilised. Sure, it's twisted, but I believe in it and will stand by that decision for as long as I personally deem it necessary. At the end of the day, I truly believe in ethics, and those sometimes entail doing some really weird, counterintuitive stuff. That whole “borderline-conflict” indeed bothered me some but, at the end of the day, I sleep perfectly at night, and when I don't, it ain't over what transpired here in these forums, that's for sure. ;)

How much time have you been wasting on this long long text everywhere on this forum?

Do you think Serif will work harder on the product because of your bla bla bla about how bad everything Serif is doing, and, you threaten with a 1-2-3 star review so you can warn other CC-people to avoid Affinity Suite? Who do you think you are?

You are just one small customer along others, no more, although you seems to be a clever guy on graphics...

Faceless company? How many faceless companies isn´t there out there? My expensive car, perhaps 100x more expensive then Affinity Designer, is manufacture by a company without a "face", but, I don´t care, it´s not important...

 

Faceless

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I'm a software developer with over two decades of experience, who started as a 2D 'tweens' animator.

Features are very hard to implement, and take time to do correctly.  An eyedropper and a color palette, for instance, could take months to get out the door.  Once you jump in, it's often a much longer swim than you'd estimate.

Serif has been top-notch in their approach, and going "Valve Time" is important when you care about what you're creating.

And, don't forget... this isn't a static design.  We could spend a week on a logo and still not be completely satisfied with how effective it could be.

Now, add all the time and patience required to give a design form and function.  This is what Serif deals with every second of the workday (and beyond that.)  Looking at what they've done so far, I feel that once a new feature is released, they've released it while being proud of a job well done.

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Without resorting to novella length replies (please!) can someone explain to me how deleting the two roadmap topics has in any way made my investment in time & money in the Affinity apps something I should regret doing?


Affinity Photo 1.7.3, Affinity Designer 1.7.3, Affinity Publisher 1.7.3; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
Affinity Photo 1.7.3.155 & Affinity Designer 1.7.3.1 for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 13.1.2

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15 minutes ago, R C-R said:

Without resorting to novella length replies (please!) can someone explain to me how deleting the two roadmap topics has in any way made my investment in time & money in the Affinity apps something I should regret doing? 

It doesn't, however it allows an amnesiac approach, and to disregard promised features for the 1.x branch.

People forget stuff so easily.

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3 hours ago, CLC said:

It doesn't, however it allows an amnesiac approach, and to disregard promised features for the 1.x branch.

People forget stuff so easily.

I seriously doubt the "amnesiac approach" would work -- there are far too many of us not likely to forget at least our most hoped for promised 1.x features, so if the only way to get them is with a paid upgrade to 2.x (which do not forget, they say they have not even begun work on) we are going to complain loud & long about that, not just here on their web site but all over the web.

Besides, I think the removal of the 2 roadmaps is simply because they have outlived their usefulness. There are now 3 apps & so many 'core' features that are common to both that maintaining separate roadmaps does not make much sense, at least to me. I would like to see a 'unified' 1.x roadmap of some sort, so perhaps they are working on that.

Either way, time will tell, so I am not going to worry about it now.


Affinity Photo 1.7.3, Affinity Designer 1.7.3, Affinity Publisher 1.7.3; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
Affinity Photo 1.7.3.155 & Affinity Designer 1.7.3.1 for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 13.1.2

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15 hours ago, R C-R said:

Without resorting to novella length replies (please!) can someone explain to me how deleting the two roadmap topics has in any way made my investment in time & money in the Affinity apps something I should regret doing?

My own investment in time and money... been paid like by a bazillion factor, if I count on the amount of work both Photo and Designer have allowed me to pull and carry to finished projects, and very happily delivered (for both parts). Even more, the tools helped in fixing issues / covering gaps existing in workflows I had with other apps. (referring now to older projects made with other tools, so, being all in different native formats)

...So... on top of that, if some threads get deleted for moderation reasons (sth  absolutely normal in any community), off topic, attacks, etc, etc (after so many warnings), the investment was already fully covered many times. Even if absolutely none of the planned features were to be included in 1.x (which cannot be the case, as quite some were already added, and, as I mentioned before: for free).


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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