Background grids & ruler guides

[Horizon3]

Hi All, 

I need help understanding background grids & ruler guides in Affinity Publisher.

First the background grids: In the workbook for AP, one of the projects is a magazine. The instructions tell you to set up a background grid, but background grids are not explained in the book. The instructions tell you how to set up the background grid (not everything in the instructions are so clear, though), but what they don't explain/tell you is how they decide on the numbers/units they use for the background grid. Making sense? What I mean is how do they determine that you should set the spacing to 4mm, for example? Why not 7mm? 24mm? How are those units arrived at or determined? 

Now on to the ruler guides.

These are wonderful creatures, but there too I have the same question: how does one determine the "precise numerical positions" to enter into the Guides Manager? 

For any guide really, how are those numbers arrived at or determined? If I'm laying out a project from scratch, how do I know which numerical values to enter when setting up guides and the background grid? For example, I was taught a formula for setting up a baseline grid, so I know how to arrive at/determine which numerical values to enter and I know what those numbers mean. But for guides and background grids is there a book that teaches about how to arrive at their numerical values for the Guides Manager? 

Thank you. 

[thomaso]

12 hours ago, Horizon3 said:

But for guides and background grids is there a book that teaches about how to arrive at their numerical values for the Guides Manager? 

I think there are various books, most of them in English. For instance search "graphic grid layout book" … e.g.:

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/218062

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/350962.Rastersysteme_f_r_die_visuelle_Gestaltung_Grid_systems_in_Graphic_Design

[Horizon3]

@thomaso I thank you very much. Both books look exactly what I need. 

[thomaso]

17 hours ago, Horizon3 said:

what they don't explain/tell you is how they decide on the numbers/units they use for the background grid. Making sense? What I mean is how do they determine that you should set the spacing to 4mm, for example? Why not 7mm?

I don't know your example but you might consider that a software provider usually doesn't explain the principles of the various aspects and use cases for software usage but rather focusses on its particular ways to achieve a wanted result technically, means the tools and functions, the UI and UX.

Layouts of typography / graphic design have many aspects to consider. Many of them are taste related (and thus not much to discuss or teach) while some can follow certain rules for a good result. For your questioned spacing (leading?) and grid gutter apart from page size & margins (the grid should be easy to handle) mainly the font size & the line lengths matter, each with the goal for "optimal" readability. Books – different to newspapers or magazines – often seem to have similar body text size and leading with an average of about 65 – 75 characters per line, simply because this was sotosay tested in studies as kind of preferred sizes for reading without reducing the reader's concentration when reading longer texts / reading for hours.

Ironically, especially Microsoft publishes this online article "How to Use Layout Grids for Better Design" that appears to ignore certain rules of "good" design (= easy to read), e.g. concerning number of chars per line (<-> column width) and space before/after paragraphs – although they quite likely have the technical skills to realize such a "Better Design" for all various screen sizes.

Although Microsoft's content appears correct, it is too short and not much helpful. While this one is a way more detailed https://visme.co/blog/layout-design/ it is still missing "recipes" or concrete examples for calculation of various sizes and dimensions.

Therefore you might indeed need to dive deeper into a printed book about grids. Then also books about "Book Typography" maybe relevant since it covers common topics as top/bottom vs. inner/outer margins or a separate margin column for instance …

[Horizon3]

4 hours ago, thomaso said:

a software provider usually doesn't explain the principles of the various aspects and use cases for software usage but rather focusses on its particular ways to achieve a wanted result technically, means the tools and functions, the UI and UX.

@thomaso yes, you are correct and I consider this. But I thought because it was a workbook for AP and Serif did such outstanding job explaining other points related to using the software and completing the projects they teach (amazing book they did, by the way), they would give some insights about the grids to help new users navigate that part of the program. But it is very possible my expectation was incorrect and misplaced. And so far, to be fair, only the magazine project has not been so clear to me as the other projects. And even in the magazine project, only the grids part - so far - has boggled the mind. 

Thank you for the article links! I also had read - before posting my question - this article: https://affinityspotlight.com/article/improve-your-page-layouts-with-affinity-publishers-column-guides/ and I noticed the author also did not give any guidance about how to determine the numerical values for the grids. This is what made me think there must be books that teach this aspect of layout/graphic design. 

I will likely try to get the books you gave the links for and I will see for books about "Book Typography" as you suggest. You have been most helpful and provided very useful information. Again, I thank you. 

[thomaso]

On 8/9/2023 at 1:41 AM, Horizon3 said:

set the spacing to 4mm, for example? Why not 7mm?

10 hours ago, Horizon3 said:

this article: https://affinityspotlight.com/article/improve-your-page-layouts-with-affinity-publishers-column-guides/ and I noticed the author also did not give any guidance about how to determine the numerical values for the grids.

I doubt there is a certain, general formula for the gutter in a multi-column layout, other than "easy to calculate with" (-> no decimals) and "taste". Different to many brochures and magazines in particular for newspapers additionally the idea of page space efficiency maybe considered (-> max. possibly amount of text per page).

The spotlight article points to their maths, a possibly simplest value for the gutter: 1 pica (-> 4 mm (4.23 mm))… whereas the unit always influences the values and thus it matters whether you layout in inch, mm, point or pica.

Many dimensions in graphic design are still related (calculated, initiated) by former, ancient typographical units and values … while they get less obvious ('hidden',  'arbitrary') meanwhile by other developments. We still know for instance "72 dpi" as kind of a standard, with "72" resulting from the unit 'point' converted to 'inch' for easier handling with inches as common unit:

Nowadays Affinity still uses those, for instance when interpreting / assigning an image resolution as being 72 dpi in the Resource Manager (in V1, changed in V2) or the equivalent in Windows of 96 dpi assigned to a new Affinity document that gets created from the content in the clipboard (simply ignoring the resolution of the copied content).

Another example for an initially dimension for easier handling is the European paper size standard DIN A which bases on meter: DIN A 0  <->  1 square meter.

Nevertheless, with the disappearance of the "type setter" as a specialized profession and DTP as replacement many former rules, maths, recipes become obsolete or simply ignored … maybe as a matter of taste but also as consequence of lost knowledge or need combined with a desire for 'freedom'. One of the most experimental graphic designers was David Carson for instance who just played with typography to create a 'picture' with less focus on readability, not only with headline fonts but also with body text columns.

Whereas the use of text / typography for a creation of a 'picture' wasn't by far invented with DTP but is visible since ages in other scripts / languages, especially in Arabic or Chinese script – especially Arabic typography (initially manual calligraphy, nowadays even digital font face) can even be hard to read for natives and appear like a "picture puzzle" rather than text information.

[Horizon3]

A little late replying and my apologies.

Do you know, I do not think many (including myself) consider the historical/ ancient typographical rules and conventions that inform modern layout design and typography. This was a good reminder. But I have a question, to make sure I understand. Typesetting and DTP are the same thing, no? The "type setter" as it were was replaced but the typesetting is still what the graphic designers do. Is this correct? (Much of this is new to me)

And the images you provide (thank you!) are well...hmm...the first set seem as if the text of the articles would be nearly illegible. It is clear that David Carson was concerned with the visual aspect of typography - the picture that could be made - and not with the reader's ability to easily read the article. And the Arabic calligraphy is very much like a puzzle. I have seen both Arabic and Chinese writing that is so "picture-puzzle" like that one was more focused on the picture they were seeing than on what the characters/letters actually said. The message seemed less important than the picture. I am curious to know if this picture actually has meaning or if it is just letters combined to create a picture. 

Comparing this image to the others, these letters don't seem attached like the letters in the other images. 

 

 

[thomaso]

21 minutes ago, Horizon3 said:

The "type setter" as it were was replaced but the typesetting is still what the graphic designers do. Is this correct?

Almost. Initially the designer did not typeset, they first started it with DTP. Before DTP, in the ages of typesetters as separate profession, the designer drew text manually: large type (headlines) as sketched type and gray bars for body text. In a next layout step the designer might have ordered some lines of text from a typesetter for more detailed layout creation and decision, including the calculation of required space / number of characters. Finally the typesetter got the main info data only (font name, weight, size, leading, column width, space before/after) and the typesetter did the entire job. For common fonts and sizes designers could also use ready printed filler text paragraphs to create the layout (with knife and glue on paper). With photocopy machines the filler text layouts became faster & cheaper for designers.

Fun fact: 2013 was a digital font created that simulates the formerly hand drawn gray body text stripes: "Redacted"
https://github.com/christiannaths/redacted-font

1 hour ago, Horizon3 said:

I am curious to know if this picture actually has meaning or if it is just letters combined to create a picture. 

In Arabic typo design calligraphy is a lot more common then in Latin scripts – and there is also more flexibility with characters (e.g. vowels do not have to be written / and can therefore easier be used as decorative elements). Also for attached or not-attached letters Arabic has various rules (as part of the grammar).

 

[Oufti]

[Grilled by @thomaso…]

 

On 8/13/2023 at 3:52 AM, Horizon3 said:

Typesetting and DTP are the same thing, no? The "type setter" as it were was replaced but the typesetting is still what the graphic designers do. Is this correct?

In the old times of manual typography, the typesetter (compositor) stood in front of an inclined desktop, where he had its case (two parts, lower- and upper case) full of types, where he picked the desired letters (sorts) and aligned (set) them on kind of a ruler. Once he has completed a few lines with appropriate leading between, he discharged them in a frame, that was later brought to the lay out marble.
There came the "mise en page", i.e. placing the content of the different columns in a page, together with titles, rules, blocks for large whites, simili-clichés for images; then placing these pages together in a form (imposition) and bind them tightly before bringing it to the printer. (Wikipedia, Letterpress printing#Process.)

Later, the typesetter was sitting in front of a machine with special keyboard, producing lines of metal letters — but the rest of the process was the same. 

Graphic designers came probably first with offset printing. Working with films, instead of rigid metal chassis, allowed cutting and pasting, letting place for creative and unusual arrangement on the pages. 

Middle of the '80's, Desktop Publishing (DTP) "digested" all these steps — graphical conception, composition, image preparation, lay out; sometimes even (specially at the beginnings) imposition and offset film printing — in only one working place: a personal computer (a Mac) with adequate software, one of the first was Aldus PageMaker, altogether with Apple LaserWriter (made by HP) and its Adobe PostScript page description language. 

But a multitool is not equivalent to a polyvalent worker. There are still many different jobs to do with a single machine (or software)…

[Horizon3]

@thomaso thank you. I have from my original question learned much. I am also now reading the book you recommended, Making and Breaking the Grid. I am learning much. 

For the Arabic typography, it is very beautiful even if one cannot read it (native speaker or non-native speaker). The image in the middle of the 3 images you posted this time is especially appealing to the eye. 

@Oufti your description of the typesetter - thank you -  immediately brought to mind a very Dickens-like image. Your description also reminds that we do not often (if at all) consider what work it takes to produce the printed products we read. It is wonderful to learn so much while learning to use Publisher. A completely enjoyable experience.