Table hell

[comancheTodd]

I've used Word and Excel for years, so I thought I'd already been through "Table Hell." But, Publisher brings it to a new level for me.

I'm sorry for dropping several issues here at once—if any of these are covered elsewhere, please point me in the right direction.

I will not be offended if you can kindly explain to me what I'm misunderstanding.

1. You CANNOT select an Existing Table by way of the Text tool, or even with the Table tool—directly.

Since I'm working on a laying out a novel, my default tool (for now) is the Text tool. One would think that the software would be aware enough to know that when I click or double-click over an existing table, the cursor should select my table and then shift to the Table tool (like the Move tool changes to the Text tool when double-clicked over text.)

For example, if you click on a table with the Text tool, it just places the cursor before or after an it (as if it were a non-text object). If you double-click over the table, it highlights the box the table is in (again like a foreign object—pretty unhelpful).

Let's try starting with the Table tool. When I first choose the Table tool, it shows the cross-hairs to create a New Table. But when I click over an existing table, it places the cursor before or after the table (just like the Text tool)! And when I double click over the table, it highlights the box it is in—exactly like the Text tool!  Huh? That's odd.

So, to get the Table tool to actually select and apply to the table I have to do these three steps, in order, every time:

1. First, choose the Move tool (I haven't tried it with other tools except the Text tool.)
2. Use the Move tool to select the existing table by clicking on it
   (This shows the table as blue lines with handles but without the shaded column and row guides;
   other than the sizing handles, this mode allows no interaction; e.g., no editing!).
3. After the existing table has been select, THEN choose the Table tool to perform table changes and edits.

Table formatting appears only if you first choose the Move tool (or if it was the last tool you were using; if the Text tool was the last tool you had chosen, you're out of luck) selecting the table with it, and then choosing the Table tool. You must use the Move tool to select the table, and then choose the Table tool to edit. If you leave out step 2, you have to start over at step 1.

Huh? This is nuts and very, VERY, frustrating.

2. Selecting non-table text with the Table Tool is allowed!

Once the Table tool is chosen, and a table has been selected, I can go from one table to another and it properly selects the next table. Yea!

But, let's say I'm done with the table for now, and I want to work on text. Since I just finished fiddling with my table, I'm still in the Table tool (it is currently active). Instinctively, I just try clicking on text without changing tools. Curiously, it works—apparently I'm allowed to use the Table tool to select and edit text! The tool panel still shows that I'm using the Table tool. However, if I try to go from that text back to a table, I have to go back to step one above. So, which tool am I in? (In spite of the tool panel, I'm going to guess it is not the Table tool...)

Another example: if while editing a table I accidentally click somewhere else (like on text), I'm forced to go through all three step to select the table again.

Perhaps these are all mere UI problems, but they sure make using tables a huge pain. Going from text to tables requires that three-step selection process Every. Single. Time.

3. Are table elements Floating or Inline or ????

I have one table near the beginning of the book that is clearly floating above the text—I can add text to the underlying page, including hitting returns, and the table doesn't move, text appears to flow underneath it.

I have several other tables in the appendix that are clearly inline, that is, they behave like they are part of the text stream. If I hit return in the text before them, they move down with the flow of the text. (They seem to act like they are in the style of the return character that immediately follows them—kinda like Word when inline text wrap is selected.)

I can't figure out how or why they are different, or how to change one kind to the other kind, or if there are still other options. Since this is intended as a layout program, it would sure be nice to understand how to control them!!  (At one point, I briefly experimented with the floating table by applying Text-Wrapping to it, but it didn't seem to do anything...)

4. Formatting Hell

I have a page in the appendix that is pretty tight—I'm trying to squeeze just one more line of text into it so that the rest of the book flows correctly. The place on the page where I could conserve some space is around three tables that contain example text. But, no matter what I've tried so far, I can't seem to control the space around the table. I have tried adjusting the "Frame Insets" at the top of the Table panel, the "Cell insets" nearer the bottom of the panel, the "paragraph format" the table appears to be in, and several other things. What seems to work on one table, won't work on the next, etc.

Very frustrating!!

(Hint? The table itself—not necessarily the contents or the row or column sizes—seem to take on spacing characteristics of the paragraph it is "in." (Remember, these are apparently "inline" tables.) Also, if the table is narrower than the text frame, and it is not followed by a return character, some of the text that follows in the frame will appear to the right of the table. If the table is as wide as the text frame, no return character is needed, but then controlling spacing between it and the following text becomes an issue.)

I would love to be told what I'm doing it wrong, and instructed on how to manipulate tables better.

(BTW, for me, Affinity's "Help" is pretty much useless—it explains things that I can usually figure out on my own, and lacks some of the details (or "tricks" or expert knowledge) that would be helpful. That's why this post.)

comancheTodd

[lacerto]

Here are a couple of things that make table editing a bit easier:

You can make table inline by cutting it and then pasting within a text frame [and conversely make it floating by cutting and pasting off the text frame]. The Layers panel shows an inline table indented (as if clipped into the text frame) and also has a small marker that shows its state as an inline object. I don't think that it is generally necessary to switch between the tools so just using the Text tool and using the Alt / Opt + click to enter the table allows editing both table text and table itself. Adding a shortcut key to Table panel would be useful.

UPDATE: When you have an inline table, it is important that the paragraph where you place the table, has a percent-based line spacing. This way when you increase or decrease the amount of rows or otherwise redimension the table, the space taken by the table will adjust automatically. You can control space around the table by using Space Before Paragraph and Space After Paragraph settings of the Paragraph panel. 

[Dan C]

Hi @comancheTodd,

Sorry to hear you're having trouble here! I will do my best to explain the behaviours you're seeing and respond to the points raised

On 9/3/2021 at 8:13 PM, comancheTodd said:

One would think that the software would be aware enough to know that when I click or double-click over an existing table, the cursor should select my table and then shift to the Table tool (like the Move tool changes to the Text tool when double-clicked over text.)

For example, if you click on a table with the Text tool, it just places the cursor before or after an it (as if it were a non-text object). If you double-click over the table, it highlights the box the table is in (again like a foreign object—pretty unhelpful).

Let's try starting with the Table tool. When I first choose the Table tool, it shows the cross-hairs to create a New Table. But when I click over an existing table, it places the cursor before or after the table (just like the Text tool)! And when I double click over the table, it highlights the box it is in—exactly like the Text tool!  Huh? That's odd.

I can confirm that when using the 'Table tool' or 'Text Tool'' (either the Frame Text Tool or the Artistic Text Tool) these function exactly the same within a Table object - they are all detected as text tools which can be correctly used to edit the values within the table cells, or change the number of rows/columns etc.

I do understand the expectation of the app switching to the Table Tool when editing a table, however this isn't needed. The Table Tool is required to draw a new table, however it isn't required to edit one, so the app remains using the same tool that was originally selected, in your case the Frame Text Tool.

Can you please confirm for me, why do you want the app to have the Table Tool selected here, so you can draw a new table after editing the current objects contents?

On 9/3/2021 at 8:13 PM, comancheTodd said:

So, to get the Table tool to actually select and apply to the table I have to do these three steps, in order, every time:

1. First, choose the Move tool (I haven't tried it with other tools except the Text tool.)
2. Use the Move tool to select the existing table by clicking on it
   (This shows the table as blue lines with handles but without the shaded column and row guides;
   other than the sizing handles, this mode allows no interaction; e.g., no editing!).
3. After the existing table has been select, THEN choose the Table tool to perform table changes and edits.

In my testing, these steps aren't required at all. Simply selecting the Table with either the Frame Text Tool, Artistic Text Tool or the Table Tool offer the same editing capabilities for me.

On 9/3/2021 at 8:13 PM, comancheTodd said:

Table formatting appears only if you first choose the Move tool (or if it was the last tool you were using; if the Text tool was the last tool you had chosen, you're out of luck) selecting the table with it, and then choosing the Table tool. You must use the Move tool to select the table, and then choose the Table tool to edit. If you leave out step 2, you have to start over at step 1.

As above, I can use any of these tools before selecting the Table within my document, with no specific order required and in all cases the Table Format icon is available on the Context Toolbar.

On 9/3/2021 at 8:13 PM, comancheTodd said:

Since I just finished fiddling with my table, I'm still in the Table tool (it is currently active). Instinctively, I just try clicking on text without changing tools. Curiously, it works—apparently I'm allowed to use the Table tool to select and edit text! The tool panel still shows that I'm using the Table tool. However, if I try to go from that text back to a table, I have to go back to step one above. So, which tool am I in?

That's the correct behaviour, as mentioned earlier all of these are detected as 'text editing tools' in Affinity, meaning you can have the Table Tool active when editing text frames. Again, I'm simply able to return to a table after this, without changing tools.

On 9/3/2021 at 8:13 PM, comancheTodd said:

Going from text to tables requires that three-step selection process Every. Single. Time.

Could you please provide a screen recording showing the issue you're referring to, and the workflow you're following for me?

On 9/3/2021 at 8:13 PM, comancheTodd said:

I have one table near the beginning of the book that is clearly floating above the text—I can add text to the underlying page, including hitting returns, and the table doesn't move, text appears to flow underneath it.

I have several other tables in the appendix that are clearly inline, that is, they behave like they are part of the text stream. If I hit return in the text before them, they move down with the flow of the text. (They seem to act like they are in the style of the return character that immediately follows them—kinda like Word when inline text wrap is selected.)

I can't figure out how or why they are different, or how to change one kind to the other kind

This has been covered by Lagarto above, this happens when manually copy/pasting your tables and there is an indicator within the Layers Panel, as well as the Pinning Studio. You can find out more about this here - https://affinity.help/publisher/English.lproj/index.html?page=pages/ObjectControl/pinning.html?title=Pinning 

On 9/3/2021 at 8:13 PM, comancheTodd said:

I have a page in the appendix that is pretty tight—I'm trying to squeeze just one more line of text into it so that the rest of the book flows correctly. The place on the page where I could conserve some space is around three tables that contain example text. But, no matter what I've tried so far, I can't seem to control the space around the table. I have tried adjusting the "Frame Insets" at the top of the Table panel, the "Cell insets" nearer the bottom of the panel, the "paragraph format" the table appears to be in, and several other things. What seems to work on one table, won't work on the next, etc.

It would help to see a copy of your document, or at least this last page - so I can provide specific advice for you. Is this something you can provide here please?

On 9/3/2021 at 8:13 PM, comancheTodd said:

(BTW, for me, Affinity's "Help" is pretty much useless—it explains things that I can usually figure out on my own, and lacks some of the details (or "tricks" or expert knowledge) that would be helpful. That's why this post.)

Thanks for your feedback, I'll be sure to pass this through to our documentation team to see how this can be improved in the future!

[comancheTodd]

I liked Lagarto's suggestion to keep track using layers. That doesn't necessarily simplify the tool-trading issue, but it does make the process more explicit.

I think part of my confusion is that the Table Tool is not, according to comments above, first and foremost a Table Editing Tool. According to Dan C's (I think), it is primarily a Table Creation Tool. Therefore, part of my confusion could be because the tool is mislabeled. If Dan C is correct, could Create Table be a better name, since that seems to be its main purpose (with editing, etc., only secondary)?

Back to my frustration:

I find it quite strange that if I have an active "Text" tool (which I've been using to edit nearby text), I can't just select the text in a table. Instead, I have to select the table first. It means—

1. From the Text tool I'm using, choose the Move Tool*
2. Use the Move Tool to select the table whose text I want to edit.
3. Then, re-choose the text tool (Text, Art-Text, or Table) so I can edit the text.

(*BTW, I don't want to "move" the table, I just want to select it. Why is this tool called "Move"? Just to be different from the competition? Should it be called the "Select Tool" or something like that instead? It would make more sense to me. But then. I'm a "Yank.")

Why can't a Text tool detect that you've selected text that lies in a table (or that you're hovering over a table before you click), select the table for you, and then select the text in that table? I get that there are floating vs inline, and possibly other constraints, but still...!

If there's a way to go from editing nearby text to editing the text in an un-selected table without changing tools twice, I haven't figured it out. Maybe Lagarto's Layers trick will help. I'll try it next time.

In the course of working on a layout, if I needed to do this 2 or 3 times in total during the course of my work, I wouldn't complain. But regarding the tables in the appendix I was referring to (gratefully, I'm done!), I was trying to carefully reduce physical length while still keeping it as readable as possible. That necessitated going back and forth several times for each of 7 or 8 separate tables as I adjusted space between paragraphs, the size of table rows, the spacing around tables, and did minor editing, to try to get the right balance. So I did that little "Tool" dance dozens of times in the course of those two pages.

There's a Japanese word that applies perfectly: めんどくさい (mendokusai) for which there is no good English translation, but roughly means "a pain; hardly worth the trouble." In fact, I ended up deleting two of the tables, resorting to tabbing and spacing instead, 'cause it was just too much trouble to try and get the tables to work.

Todd

 

[sfriedberg]

I can rarely "enter" a table to edit the cell contents by selecting the table with any of the left-hand toolbar tools.  The only thing that works 100% for me is to locate the table in the Layers panel and select it there.  Then I can get at the cell contents.

[comancheTodd]

Good advice.

For example, clicking around in the two pages that needed that "tightening" treatment, I found that I sometimes "accidentally" clicked somewhere that took the focus off the table and had to do the "Tool Two-step" all over again.

(Is it just me, or do tables in Affinity Publisher not seem quite ready for primetime... ;o)

Thanks!

Todd

[WAZZAJ]

I agree… I find the table editing a nightmare.

Using V2 I click on the table to show the columns, then click on the TABLE icon at the top of the page. The TABLE panel does not display so I can't edit the table. I looked at the HELP file—it says to go Window>Table. Within this there are two options… 1 is Table, 2 is Table Formats. Neither of these options displays the Table Panel. Why isn't there and editing option in the Table Menu? Much easier than all these stupid icons!

 

So what am I not doing?

[MikeTO]

13 minutes ago, WAZZAJ said:

I agree… I find the table editing a nightmare.

Using V2 I click on the table to show the columns, then click on the TABLE icon at the top of the page. The TABLE panel does not display so I can't edit the table. I looked at the HELP file—it says to go Window>Table. Within this there are two options… 1 is Table, 2 is Table Formats. Neither of these options displays the Table Panel. Why isn't there and editing option in the Table Menu? Much easier than all these stupid icons!

So what am I not doing?

There's a bug in v2 where the table row and column formatting controls aren't visible. You'll find the workaround here but you'll have to do it each time you start Publisher and want to edit a table until the issue is fixed.

 

[WAZZAJ]

On 11/12/2022 at 10:15 AM, MikeTO said:

There's a bug in v2 where the table row and column formatting controls aren't visible. You'll find the workaround here but you'll have to do it each time you start Publisher and want to edit a table until the issue is fixed.

Tried that but still couldn't see the Table Panel. Restarted AI and the panel then showed.