Book design issue with the gutter

[Crina]

Hi,

I am trying to release a children's book and I keep having gutter issues with it. Bits of the illstrations from the gutter area are missing when printed although they appear on the design on my screen.

 

They are saying my page size needs to be 8.375x11.25 

 

(for a printed book of 8.25x11).

 

My design is currently at 8.5x11.25.

 

The initial pdf I uploaded was 8.38 with 11.25 and it still printed wrong.

 

Are you able to tell me the dimensions I need for the bleed in order to be correct?

 

Inner:

Outer:

Top:

Bottom:

 

I had initially set 0.125 inches for all except the inner which was 0. 

 

(And that gave me the page size of 8.38 x11.25)

 

For the last printed copy I received, I put the inner at 0.125 as well.

 

(That gave me the current page size 8.5x11.25)

 

I tried putting the inner at 0.120, 0.123, 0.124 and that gives me 8.37. I can't seem to get it at 8.375. I wonder if it's a glitch in AP. 

 

I hope I'm doing something wrong (that can be fixed) because if it's a glitch and I need to redesign the whole book in a different software I'm in big trouble.

 

Could the margins of the document itself be causing any issues?

 

I think the inner margin is set at 0.75 and the rest are at 0.5. (But I think/thought this was part of the design that won't get cut, just helping me to align the text and images).

 

 If you have any ideas about what could be going wrong, please let me know.

 

Thank you for your time,

Crina.

[lacerto]

(...)

[Old Bruce]

8 1/4 x 11 plus a bleed of 1/8 ...

Page size 8 1/4 x 11

Paper size 8 1/2 x 11 1/4

Bleed needs to be in the gutter too.

1 hour ago, Crina said:

... I can't seem to get it at 8.375. I wonder if it's a glitch in AP. 

 

What you are seeing is the application rounding off the decimals for display purposes only. The entered values add up to 8.375 and that is what the values are but for display in the various boxes inches will be rounded to 2 decimal places. You can change this in the preferences.

[Crina]

51 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

Your spread dimensions should basically be the same as the format of the pubication, 8.25 x 11 in. If you specify 0.125 for outer, top and bottom and 0 for inner bleed, and then export pages (not spreads) without including any print marks, you should get a total page dimansions (with bleeds) of 8,375 x 11,25. Many printers do not want to have crop marks etc. and if they are included, the pages are auto-scaled down to the required dimension and graphics extended to the bleed show incorrectly.

The spread dimensions are the same as the document: 8.25 x 11.

I specified 0.125 for the outer, top and bottom, and 0 for the inner.

When I look at properties, it shows the page size of the pdf 8.38 x 11.25, not 8.375 x 11.25.

These were the initial settings, for the first print copy, but it came out wrong.

 

I then added 0.125 for the outer bleed as well and again the next copy printed wrong.

 

How can I not include print marks? I wasn't aware I was including them. I don't have an option for enabling or disabling that (at least I don't see any of that).

 

Also, someone else wrote:

'What you are seeing is the application rounding off the decimals for display purposes only. The entered values add up to 8.375 and that is what the values are but for display in the various boxes inches will be rounded to 2 decimal places. You can change this in the preferences.'

What exactly do I need to change there? And is it the Preferences from the Edit tab or somewhere else?

 

[Crina]

1 hour ago, Lagarto said:

then export pages (not spreads)

I exported as pages (not spreads) because that is what I need for the printer.

[Crina]

1 hour ago, Lagarto said:

without including any print marks

I checked and it appears I deselected the printers marks. I forgot about doing that.

[lacerto]

(...)

[Crina]

6 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

In what way did it print wrong?

For example, bits of my main character's face are missing. The image is supposed to be flowing on both pages (it's a square image).

So bits of the illustrations are missing but not as in they get lost in the gutter and are hard to see - the gutter area has white instead of those illustrated bits.

I am currently still waiting to hear from the printer. They only told me that it needs to be 8.375 x 11.25. 

 

Maybe I need to turn Facing pages off since I am exporting as All pages not as spreads?

[lacerto]

(...)

[Crina]

13 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

Do you have anything printed at the outer edges of the pages (so is there really need for outer bleed

Yes, there are illustrations that extend to the edge of the pages.

But would it even make a difference if I were to put the inner as 0.125 and outer as 0? Would it not still be the same size? It will just affect different pages, I think.

I've attached a few pages from the book so you can see what I am dealing with. The middle (gutter area) prints with white instead of what I see on the screen in this document. Basically part of the bald guy's head is removed and replaced with white and same with the woman with the hair in a bun (that whole vertical section would be white instead of illustrated).

The book is glued, not sewn.

ISCA 5 pages only for AP Forum.pdf

[Crina]

51 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

If you have elements that extend across the spine, and you have facing pages, then specifying inner bleeds takes care of the gutter area which should have color extended on both affected pages (which the printer then trims off), and there should be no gaps.

It is just that given the specs it does not sound as if symmetric bleeds are expected (that is, both inner and outer bleeds, as the total width should then be 8.5 in). How is the book bound? Do you have anything printed at the outer edges of the pages (so is there really need for outer bleed? Since if you don't then specifying inner bleeds as 0.125 and outer as 0 would produce the asked total page width, but add the color to the gutter area. But it's better to wait for printer's instructions.

If I put inner bleed 0.125 and outer bleed 0, with top and bottom 0.125, this is how it looks like.

The previous uploaded file had inner 0 and outer 0.125.

ISCA 5 pages only for AP Forum with inner bleed instead of outer.pdf

[lacerto]

(...)

[Crina]

3 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

You totally need bleed on outer edges. For a glued book where color is extended to inner edge (gutter) I would then expect the print specs to require inner bleed, as well. It is just that I do not get their requirement for the total page width given the specified book format... There must be some misunderstanding...

When opened, the book lays quite flat (especially if I press on it lightly), as in I am able to see all in, the entire page/illustration (if it were not for the whites replacing the illustrated bits), nothing is caught in between making it unable for my eye to see the full image.

It does not lay completely flat on its own, however.

[Crina]

10 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

You totally need bleed on outer edges. For a glued book where color is extended to inner edge (gutter) I would then expect the print specs to require inner bleed, as well. It is just that I do not get their requirement for the total page width given the specified book format... There must be some misunderstanding...

Are you able to see if the dimensions are correct - 8.375? I can only see the rounded off ones. I can't inspect further in my adobe reader.

[lacerto]

(...)

[Crina]

16 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

 

Yes, they are exacrly as in my screenshot above. Is it some kind of a draft or proof print where you can see parts of the gutter area totally missing? Given the format of the book, the pages that you have provided should produce both outer and inner bleeds without problems in a facing pages layout. But having both missing bits and a gap in the gutter area sounds like there could be some problem with the format.

It's as if the gap is replacing the missing illustrations.

 

Yes, I have had the book actually printed 3 times now (first 2 times with inner 0 and outer 0.125 - I was advised to order a second copy in case something went wrong during the manufacturing, which I did order and already sent back because of the gutter issue; the 3rd time I had inner and outer set at 0.125 each).

The format is hardcover. 

Which do you think are the correct settings for an 8.25x11 book?

Inner:

Outer:

Top:

Bottom:

 

I keep thinking maybe I shouldn't include the margins from the spread settings, but I don't see how unchecking that would affect the printing because those are part of the actual design.

I think including or excluding those won't make a difference. They will still be present in the design, only the bleed gets cut, as far as I know. Otherwise, I think more would have been cut (or made white) from the illustrations - inner, top, bottom, and outer, not just the gutter area.

Thank you for trying to help me.

I'm at a loss with what to do and it's very frustrating because I have another book I was planning (and still am) to design in the same style and format, so I need those gutters sorted and everything going smoothly, especially because the new book will have an illustration fully taking both pages (without any text on) and if I have to downscale that to fit on one page, it will look awful. Well, not awful, but certainly not as intended. It won't have the same impact.

 

I hope the printer people will be able to tell me what the issue is.

[Crina]

Just now, Crina said:

Yes, they are exacrly as in my screenshot above

Thank you for letting me know about that.

[lacerto]

(...)

[Crina]

11 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

How did that come out? As that's what I'd have advised, adding the same amount of inner bleed as you have the outer, but obviously that does not resolve it. This sounds as if it were some kind of restriction with the printer. 

It seems to be very similar, if not printed exactly the same. I've returned the other copies so I can't compare them, but yeah, same thing seems to be happening.

[Wosven]

HI,

That's really strange, I never work with a printer asking for no crop marks when dealing with books or magazines (they complain if there's a lack of bleed and crop marks). They can delete it if needed, but at least they have the PDF to check how the result should be. No guesswork of different print test.

If they can't provide a page with technical and clear explanations about how to set the page, I would probably found another printer... The fisrt thing we do once a project is decided, after some technical choices due to cost, is to write down the specifications needed for the document.

Do they have a page with such informations, or is it a special format?

[Crina]

13 hours ago, Wosven said:

Do they have a page with such informations, or is it a special format?

They do have some specifications, which I made sure I set correctly when designing my book.

However, this is a new format and they don't have a template on their website for the size I made (not that I can see). They have for other paperback books of different sizes.

I'm starting to believe more that it's an issue from them, not from me, because I compared the video I took of the first print with the 3rd physical copy I currently have, and the illustrations are cut and replaced with white in the exact same spots, despite the fact that the 1st and 3rd book were printed after different files I uploaded. One had inner bleed 0, the last had inner set at 0.125.

Everything else seems to be fine with the book, it's a sturdy, large beautiful format, the colors are as intended, the edges seem to be cut where they should be, it's just the gutter that seems to have an issue.

I really hope it can be sorted because my next book was supposed to be exactly this format and will have a double page illustration at one point and it will not look great if it's cut in two. The other illustrations I could design differently on individual pages, but not that scene, which is a very important one in the story.

 

I don't really want to use a different printer at this point because it's giving me other benefits, not just the printing. Other companies I used for other books previously are way more expensive and with some the colors weren't printed as vibrant as I made them be.

Anyway, I don't know what else to do, I'm currently waiting to hear from the printer people.

Thank you for all your help.